Spirituality
10 Apr 23
17 Apr 23
@kellyjay saidThe "Covenants" thing is how the creators of breakaway Christianity chose to frame the evolution of morality.
Covenants don't evolve they are made.
They also crowbarred a highly contrived angels-dancing-on-the-head-of-a-pin form of polytheism into the monotheistic Abrahamic religion.
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@kellyjay saidThis is an example of what FMF referred to earlier as you being “dishonest”. You know exactly what point Moonbus is making but you are dishonesty pretending not to.
Exactly what point are you attempting to make by quoting that OT verse?
Exodus 22:18 “You shall not suffer a witch to live” Is an example of dozens and dozens of OT codes of morality which have “evolved” in terms of one covenant to another.
Let me be more specific…
You KellyJay if asked today by a self professed witch if it was morally acceptable for them to be executed for their practices would say “no”, wouldn’t you? And yet it was morally acceptable a few thousand years ago for the ancient Hebrews.
I’ll go further…
You today, if you stood at the scene of a witch being burnt alive in the grounds of your own church, you would say it was “evil to do that. 4000 years ago you would have said it was “good”.
That’s moonbus’ point and it’s absolutely clear why you are dishonesty pretending you don’t understand it.
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The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to d them,”
declares the Lord.
“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
Jeremiah 31: 31-34
But even more interestingly, in his letter to the Hebrews, Paul says this is for the above words by Jeremiah…
Verse 7
For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. But God found fault with the people and said (insert entire text by Jeremiah above)
Paul then sums up by saying:
By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
An outdated, obsolete code of morality was replaced by another better code.
I also again point you to the declaration “I will write my law on their hearts” … not in a book.
@divegeester saidIt's STILL 2022 in KellyJayWorld.
This is an example of what FMF referred to earlier as you being “dishonest”. You know exactly what point Moonbus is making but you are dishonesty pretending not to.
17 Apr 23
@kellyjay said... if all of your love and goodness are simply because you are getting something out of it, can that really be called either real goodness or love ...
What you are doing is saying that type of behavior is normal human activity throughout all time in every culture, in every period in time, in every society, it isn't a defect its normal human nature. Your explanation for it is it's always been there we got to eat. While good behavior you have a difficult time explaining, it isn't chemically produced, so you suggest it's a le ...[text shortened]... ething out of it, can that really be called either real goodness or love, it is still all about you?
Speaking of "getting something" for acting morally (or pretending to anyway), let us make the following hypothetical supposition: there really was a teacher who taught people to love themselves, love God, and love their neighbors, and he really was crucified, but he stayed dead and is still dead now and he's never coming back. Suppose there was no resurrection, neither for him nor for you. You too will die and stay dead. So there's no eternal life in it for you anymore; there's just the Ten Commandments. Would you still follow the Ten Commandments, even if there were nothing in it for you anymore?
... or it is still all about you?
Suppose, hypothetically, that your little wisp of ego had not bought into the story of a promise to be perpetuated for all eternity. Suppose your little wisp of ego would live only a short span, and stay dead in cold, dark, dissipated nothingness forever and ever. Would you still follow the Ten Commandments, if there were no promise of eternity for you?
Which one of us thinks it's all about himself, eh?
17 Apr 23
@moonbus saidThere are different types of love Agape is the one that gives to the one loved no matter the cost to the one giving for the sake of the one loved. There is romantic love, friendship love, and on I'm sure you are familiar with this. I believe Jesus died and rose from the dead, you want to deny that and make that your reasoning for not being able to tell me how love began if we cannot use logic or chemistry?
... if all of your love and goodness are simply because you are getting something out of it, can that really be called either real goodness or love ...
Speaking of "getting something" for acting morally (or pretending to anyway), let us make the following hypothetical supposition: there really was a teacher who taught people to love themselves, love God, and love t ...[text shortened]... there were no promise of eternity for you?
Which one of us thinks it's all about himself, eh?
Did you decide to not stay on topic?
People can act out in a myriad of different ways towards the gospel, your denial is one of them, someone can accept the gospel in name only, looking to get out of it in this world alone, playing the part but nothing of Christ in them. Some share the gospel and appeal to others' selfishness too, so the offer to join Christianity can be given to others not talking about Christ, but the other's self-interest, not the love of God, but self-interest come get your get out of jail/hell free card. Not much different than saying come let us go rob a bank and get something they may want without having to pay for it.
A loving God made a world where authentic love, not robotic love is possible, and it immediately went wrong, if you can tell me how God could have done it differently speak up. In this world, love is possible, where people can honestly love to the point of giving up their lives for the sake of serving others and God.
This is different than merit-driven beliefs that can have people trying to earn their way into some paradise by blowing up buildings, beheading others, canceling others who disagree with them, and going after those not part of their herd.
17 Apr 23
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@KellyJay
Speaking of staying on topic, if there were no afterlife, would you still follow the Ten Commandments?
I don’t have to explain where love came from any more than I have to explain where memory or imagination or sensory perception came from. These are just part of being alive, that’s all. No explanation is needed.
17 Apr 23
@moonbus saidEvil is it real? Love the beginning of it started in our existence is explained how without logic, or chemistry?
@KellyJay
Speaking of staying on topic, if there were no afterlife, would you still follow the Ten Commandments?
I don’t have to explain where love came from any more than I have to explain where memory or imagination or sensory perception came from. These are just part of being alive, that’s all.
We love because God first loved us, His ways like Himself are perfect. He is good, and there is never a time where He is not good so everything done by God is good, He is also just and this too is always true so there is never a time where He is not always good and just, He is righteous and there is never a time where He is not good, just, and righteous. God is love, not simply something He does, but who He is. Love is not something a single one can do, some may like looking in the mirror and just swooning over themselves but that would be sad (another said this first), while the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit have been in an eternal loving relationship forever, and He has made us in His image. So we to can enter into this loving relationship with God.
So the evil of man before God needs to be dealt with in a way that satisfies all of God's attributes justice, righteousness, goodness, and love, and this is not done by not seeing the evil in us, instead God saw our need and through His righteousness, goodness, love, gave us mercy through those on the cross where He took all that separated us from Him onto Himself and bore the penalty we should have paid.
You also cannot explain memory, imagination, sensory perception, and a host of other things so you stick your head in the sand over them, they are beyond your worldview's ability to explain so you ignore and criticize anything that does. Out of your reach, out of your meta-narrative of life, so you ignore them, they are not needed if they can dispel your worldview's lack of explanation, If they cannot be explained with chemistry and logic so instead of acknowledging so much about the universe you are in close your eyes, stuff your ears, and keep your mouth shut about them.
Small wonder you have changed the subject, this is why you present a hypothetical that does not take into account the whole.
17 Apr 23
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@kellyjay saidYes, evil is real. Burning witches, millions of them during the middle ages, was evil. Saudi Arabia is still executing people for witchcraft. It is still evil.
Evil is it real? Love the beginning of it started in our existence is explained how without logic, or chemistry?
We love because God first loved us, His ways like Himself are perfect. He is good, and there is never a time where He is not good so everything done by God is good, He is also just and this too is always true so there is never a time where He is not always good ...[text shortened]... anged the subject, this is why you present a hypothetical that does not take into account the whole.
Yet the book you call the inerrant Word of God once commanded that people to do this and they really did this. Never mind that there was allegedly another convenient which allegedly rescinded it. It was once commanded by a god-figure you profess to be absolutely good that people do this.
17 Apr 23
@divegeester saidI take it that he still believes it to be the inerrant Word of God, if not complete and exclusive. The inerrancy of scripture is, after all, one of the Five Solas. Scripture is also held to be complete for the salvation of man, though not necessarily complete in the sense of being an exhaustive encyclopedia of how everything in the universe works. That at least some biblical passages were not actually spoken by God Himself, but are entirely human records, is beyond any reasonable doubt; hence, it is not the exclusive Word of God and no reasonable person would or should think it is.
Kellyjay has recently acknowledged that the Bible is NOT the “inerrant, complete and exclusive” word of God.