Jesus Lied . For The Bible Tells Me So .

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom. (Matthew 16: 27/28).

That's the best you have to offer, allegory or parable?


'Truly I tell you' - Jesus is emphasising the factual truth of what he is saying.
'Some of you who are standing here' - A literal statement directed at the people right there in front of him. Where is the allegory? Where is the parable?

That depends entirely on how one interprets the phrase "not taste death". Does it mean, one will not fear death (i.e., one will live in the timeless present and really physically die and stay dead), or does it mean one will die, be physically resurrected, and then transported to life everlasting? If the former, then it is literal and some people will achieve this zen-like state in this life, here and now; if the latter, then it's allegorical, a promise yet to be fulfilled in some afterlife.

@moonbus said
That depends entirely on how one interprets the phrase "not taste death". Does it mean, one will not fear death (i.e., one will live in the timeless present and really physically die and stay dead), or does it mean one will die, be physically resurrected, and then transported to life everlasting? If the former, then it is literal and some people will achieve this zen-like sta ...[text shortened]... here and now; if the latter, then it's allegorical, a promise yet to be fulfilled in some afterlife.

The passage is usually linked to Jesus's transfiguration, but I think that is just an attempt to mask the incorrect prediction Jesus made. (I imagine the words of Jesus were more impactful to his listeners if they believed the end was truly nigh, so close in fact some of them would still be alive to witness it).

@ghost-of-a-duke said
I vividly recollect you saying you had an uncanny superpower. (In no way did I add any embellishments).

You seem to be lying Ghost of a Duke.

Tut tut

@ghost-of-a-duke said
I have no idea about his mind set or motivations. I never met the fellow.

But you are quick to jump to the conclusion that he was lying.

@divegeester said
You seem to be lying Ghost of a Duke.

Tut tut

It was irony sir.

Presenting an embellished version is a tactic you know well.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
It was irony sir.

Presenting an embellished version is a tactic you know well.

I haven’t embellished anything.

@divegeester said
But you are quick to jump to the conclusion that he was lying.

The passage concerned indicates he was lying. His motives for doing so are less clear.

If I told my friends I wasn't going to a party and then went anyway in secret, I could fairly be described as lying to my friends. No?

@ghost-of-a-duke said
The passage concerned indicates he was lying. His motives for doing so are less clear.

If I told my friends I wasn't going to a party and then went anyway in secret, I could fairly be described as lying to my friends. No?

Ok good, so we have established that when someone says something they know to be untrue they are lying.

What if a person says something they truly believe to be true but everyone else knows it it be untrue, would they be lying or deluded?

@divegeester said
Ok good, so we have established that when someone says something they know to be untrue they are lying.

What if a person says something they truly believe to be true but everyone else knows it it be untrue, would they be lying or deluded?

Are they presented with concrete evidence they are wrong but continue to believe it anyway?

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Are they presented with concrete evidence they are wrong but continue to believe it anyway?

Is “concrete evidence” that someone believes something to be true which everyone else believes to be false, a requirement in your “career path” experience to recognise delusional thinking?

@divegeester said
Is “concrete evidence” that someone believes something to be true which everyone else believes to be false, a requirement in your “career path” experience to recognise delusional thinking?

It is a recognised facet of delusion, yes. (A person continuing to believe something even when confronted with concreate evidence they are wrong).

@ghost-of-a-duke said
It is a recognised facet of delusion, yes. (A person continuing to believe something even when confronted with concreate evidence they are wrong).

Is this your professional opinion or are you just floating “concrete evidence” as a lay person?

@divegeester said
Is this your professional opinion or are you just floating “concrete evidence” as a lay person?

It is a recognised facet of delusion.

delusion
noun
a false belief or judgment about external reality, held despite incontrovertible evidence to the contrary, occurring especially in mental conditions.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
It is a recognised facet of delusion.

delusion
noun
a false belief or judgment about external reality, held despite incontrovertible evidence to the contrary, occurring especially in mental conditions.

So when Suzianne claims to have been visited by angels who spoke to her words which profoundly impacted her life, you must concur that this possibly actually happened and with real angels, as you have no “concrete evidence” to the contrary.

Correct?

@ghost-of-a-duke said
The passage is usually linked to Jesus's transfiguration, but I think that is just an attempt to mask the incorrect prediction Jesus made. (I imagine the words of Jesus were more impactful to his listeners if they believed the end was truly nigh, so close in fact some of them would still be alive to witness it).

I take Jesus's statement to be prophecy, not prediction. That is a crucial difference.

"Prediction" is an empirical assertion about some fact in the future, which can be objectively verified by the occurrence or failure of said occurrence of the fact so asserted. For example, a comet will pass by Earth on such and such a date. This is an objective fact, come what may, no matter what humans do or think about it. That is what "prediction" means.

"Prophecy" is not assertion of a future fact, come what may, no matter what humans do or think about it. Prophecy is an exhortation to make something happen, and thereby materially depends on what people do and think about it.

For example, in Zech. (OT), there is a prophecy, properly so understood, that the Messiah would (not will, must, come what may like the appearance of a comet) enter Jerusalem riding a donkey. Then, in the NT, it is reported that Jesus, at the gates of Jerusalem, instructed his disciples to go forth into the town and procure him a donkey (or its unridden colt), "that prophecy be fulfilled." That is, Jesus knew of the prophecy and assumed that the Jews would know of it as well, and he does this in order to give the people of Jerusalem a sign that their Messiah has arrived, in humility on a donkey. That is, Jesus interprets the prophecy as an exhortation, how he is to act, so he makes this come true, as a sign to his people.

I read the entire Bible as prophecy (exhortation how to live), very very little of it as history (what really happened, literally factually), and none of it as predictions about the future (what will happen, no matter what people do or think about it).

In the passage of the thread title, Jesus exhorts his followers to make this come true, within his lifetime; he expresses faith that some would do so, and perhaps the observation that at least some who had heard him "with understanding" had already done so. Jesus knew that his end was nigh, and that without his example before their eyes, it would be more difficult for succeeding generations to follow his path.