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15 Jul 16
1 edit
Originally posted by checkbaiter
Jesus had a beginning, he was created.
The Angel Gabriel said this....
[b]Matt 1:18-21
18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. 19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not wanting to make her a public example, was ...[text shortened]... this is not “conceived”
or “begotten” he merely passes through one form of life into another .
Jesus did not pre-exist in heaven as God and then decide to reduce himself and then pass through time and space and enter Mary’s womb as a baby. An entity like this is not “conceived” or “begotten” he merely passes through one form of life into another .
What does First Corinthians 15:48 say ? It says that the second man is out of heaven.
" The first man is out of the earth, earthy; the second man is out of heaven."
Now do not be upset with ME. The Apostle Paul wrote that. The SECOND MAN is out of heaven.
So I can agree on one sense that Jesus had a beginning in being conceived, born, coming out of the human womb or however you would like to put it. But we cannot press this too far for the second man is out of heaven. And unless you flat out deny Philippians 2:5-11 you have to admit that one who was equal with God became a man - a servant of a man to His Father - a slave in fact dying and rising again from the dead.
Your frustration is misdirected towards "Trinitarians". I have just been quoting the word of God. Your frustration should be aimed at the pure and plain words of Scripture.
Better that you simply proclaimed AMEN! to the wonderful mysterious God and God-man.
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15 Jul 16
Originally posted by sonshipYou are reading into the word of God to fit your belief. It does not say the second man is out of heaven, as if he pre-existed.Jesus did not pre-exist in heaven as God and then decide to reduce himself and then pass through time and space and enter Mary’s womb as a baby. An entity like this is not “conceived” or “begotten” he merely passes through one form of life into another .
What does [b]First Corinthians 15:48 say ? It says that the second man is out of ...[text shortened]... ter that you simply proclaimed AMEN! to the wonderful mysterious God and God-man.[/b]
It is saying God formed or created a seed in Mary. Jesus did not pre-exist and then become a sperm in Mary. That is ridiculous and changing the bible.
Jesus had to grow and study the scriptures to learn about how he was conceived.
15 Jul 16
It is still amazing to me that an entire religion is devoted to Jesus Christ, and yet his identity is the cause of much confusion. Who is He? Son of God.....or God? It should seem obvious that 'worshiping' him without knowing who you are worshiping could be considered futile.
For me, the 'Trinity Problem' is something that is a roadblock to my own spiritual growth.
I haven't posted in a while, but wanted to throw in my two cents here.
I'm curious as to how this 'identity crisis' in Jesus, and the Trinity problem can ever be really solved, and why God allowed its birth in the first place.
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15 Jul 16
Originally posted by chaney3God did not "allow" it's growth, the Adversary did.
It is still amazing to me that an entire religion is devoted to Jesus Christ, and yet his identity is the cause of much confusion. Who is He? Son of God.....or God? It should seem obvious that 'worshiping' him without knowing who you are worshiping could be considered futile.
For me, the 'Trinity Problem' is something that is a roadblock to my own spiritual ...[text shortened]... the Trinity problem can ever be really solved, and why God allowed its birth in the first place.
It came about with the compromise of Pagan religions, especially in the time of Constantine.
I apologize Yoctobyte, since the OP has been hijacked, I will stop after leaving these verses from 1Corinth., 8.....
For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many gods and many lords), 6yet to us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we are for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we are through him. 7But not everyone has that knowledge.
“one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we are for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we are through him.” This verse clearly distinguishes between Jesus and God. There is one God and Father, and there is one man, Jesus, who is our “Lord.” This verse shows how God and Jesus work in unity to get the Church what it needs. God gave Jesus all authority and made him head over the Church, so now we get what we need “through” Jesus.
Some Trinitarians say that this verse supports the doctrine of the Trinity because it says that all things came through Jesus Christ. But what the verse actually says is that all things came “from” God, “through” Jesus. That stands in contradiction to Trinitarian doctrine because it places Jesus in a subordinate role to God. According to this verse, Jesus is not “co-equal’ with the Father; the Father is “God” and the ultimate source of all things, and Jesus is not called “God.”
The context is the key to understanding what the phrase “all things came through him” means. There is no mention in either the immediate or the remote context about the creation of the world such that the “all things” refers to the original creation of Genesis. This verse is speaking of the Church. God provided all things for the Church via Jesus Christ.
The whole book of 1 Corinthians is taken up with Church issues, and Paul starts 8:6 with “for us,” i.e., for Christians. 1 Corinthians 8:4-5 had said that even though there were “so called” gods, for us “there is no God but one.” The Roman world was polytheistic, and people were used to having different “gods” and different “lords” provide different things in different ways. As the various gods provided things, often those provisions would be mediated and distributed to the people through “lords,” lesser gods or people, such as the priests. That was a major reason the Romans had so many temples and shrines to the different gods and worshipped them all—to curry as much of their favor as possible. But Paul challenged that commonly-accepted practice, and boldly stated that there was only one God “from whom are all things,” and only one Lord “through whom are all things.”
http://www.revisedenglishversion.com/1-Corinthians/chapter8/6
15 Jul 16
Originally posted by chaney3Thats your roadblock?
It is still amazing to me that an entire religion is devoted to Jesus Christ, and yet his identity is the cause of much confusion. Who is He? Son of God.....or God? It should seem obvious that 'worshiping' him without knowing who you are worshiping could be considered futile.
For me, the 'Trinity Problem' is something that is a roadblock to my own spiritual ...[text shortened]... the Trinity problem can ever be really solved, and why God allowed its birth in the first place.
Yeah right.
16 Jul 16
Originally posted by Rajk999As I recall, you Rak do NOT believe in the Trinity. Others do.
Thats your roadblock?
Yeah right.
Don't you think at least knowing who Jesus really is would be a great bit of info to have.....before you start worshiping?
And if it's such clear knowledge, then why do sonship and others not share your same belief?
16 Jul 16
Originally posted by chaney3So how is that your roadblock?
As I recall, you Rak do NOT believe in the Trinity. Others do.
Don't you think at least knowing who Jesus really is would be a great bit of info to have.....before you start worshiping?
And if it's such clear knowledge, then why do sonship and others not share your same belief?
Explain that.
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16 Jul 16
1 edit
Originally posted by chaney3It should not be a road block. God has commanded all men to repent and receive Jesus as Lord. Trinity or no Trinity, you just obey what the bible says.
As I recall, you Rak do NOT believe in the Trinity. Others do.
Don't you think at least knowing who Jesus really is would be a great bit of info to have.....before you start worshiping?
And if it's such clear knowledge, then why do sonship and others not share your same belief?
God has highly exalted him and made him Lord. That is enough right there to get you saved.
Acts 2:36
36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
NKJV
Acts 2:38-39
Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
NKJV
Trinity makes no difference... don't use that as an excuse.
16 Jul 16
Originally posted by checkbaiterI'm not certain that I intended to make an 'excuse' with my roadblock comment, but will think on that.
It should not be a road block. God has commanded all men to repent and receive Jesus as Lord. Trinity or no Trinity, you just obey what the bible says.
God has highly exalted him and made him Lord. That is enough right there to get you saved.
[b]Acts 2:36
36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you ...[text shortened]... rd our God will call."
NKJV
Trinity makes no difference... don't use that as an excuse.[/b]
Maybe it's the varied interpretations of the Bible that is troubling me. You gave your opinion of what you believe the Bible meant regarding the true nature of God....and Jesus. Yet sonship sees it much differently. And you both are getting the words from the same source.
Could it really be the Adversary all the time?
'What's confusing you is just the nature of my game'.
The Stones.
16 Jul 16
1 edit
Originally posted by chaney3Some heads-down ears-back ideologues may well beg to differ with me, but the "Trinity Problem" is an angels on the head of a pin type distraction in the context of the core message of Christianity. If you are citing it as a stumbling block of some kind for you, then your real problem is most likely simple procrastination and you'd be experiencing it regardless of which religion you were flirting with. If someone resolves the "Trinity Problem" for you, you will probably find some other excuse.
I'm not certain that I intended to make an 'excuse' with my roadblock comment, but will think on that.
16 Jul 16
Originally posted by FMFMaybe you're right....I don't know.
SOme ears-back heads-down ideologues will beg to differ with me, but the "Trinity Problem" is an angels on the head of a pin type distraction in the context of the core message of Christianity. If you are citing it as a stumbling block of some kind for you, then your real problem is most likely simple procrastination and you'd be experiencing it regardless of wh ...[text shortened]... th. If someone resolves the "Trinity Problem" for you, you will probably find some other excuse.
I struggle a lot with the contents of the Bible, not being absolutely sure that the true nature of God is accurately represented. The 'Noah' thread is just an example of that.
Ghost has suggested that I am simply a theist right now, which is fine, because I'm not really convinced of anything at the moment except that 'a Creator' is there.
16 Jul 16
Originally posted by chaney3If there is something about the way you're wired that makes you need to subscribe to folklore about supernatural things, you could consider trying other religions. Your preoccupation with Christianity is most likely a product of where you were born and stuff like how you were brought up or who was around you when you were younger. If you don't think the true nature of God is accurately represented by what Christians claim, there are other purported revelations you could examine. Christianity is not the only set of beliefs that gives people comfort and purpose.
Maybe you're right....I don't know.
I struggle a lot with the contents of the Bible, not being absolutely sure that the true nature of God is accurately represented. The 'Noah' thread is just an example of that.
Ghost has suggested that I am simply a theist right now, which is fine, because I'm not really convinced of anything at the moment except that 'a Creator' is there.
16 Jul 16
Originally posted by FMFIt's not so much that I 'need' to believe. My opinion is that ample evidence exists of creation....and of a Creator. If it were not for the Bible, then each person would be 'free' to speculate on this Creator and come to their own personal conclusion.
If there is something about the way you're wired that makes you need to subscribe to folklore about supernatural things, you could consider trying other religions. Your preoccupation with Christianity is most likely a product of where you were born and stuff like how you were brought up or who was around you when you were younger. If you don't think the true nat ...[text shortened]... ould examine. Christianity is not the only set of beliefs that gives people comfort and purpose.
But the Bible (and other religions for that matter) have given the Creator a name, and a character. We are left with a decision to either believe it or not. And it doesn't help when the text is both confusing and left wide open for infinite amounts of varying interpretations.
And me....I am biased with God and Jesus. My childhood and upbringing as you pointed out. I am far from being able to change over to Buddha now.
I hesitated to post tonight...but said what the hell.
16 Jul 16
Originally posted by chaney3Like I said, your preoccupation with "the Bible" and Christianity is most likely simply a product of where you happened to be born and stuff like that. You said "My childhood and upbringing as you pointed out. I am far from being able to change over to Buddha now", and, of course, I am not saying you should become a Buddhist, but this revealing remark demonstrates that your search is not an open minded one and is perhaps hamstrung and limited by "bias" that has been superimposed onto you by your particular human environment.
It's not so much that I 'need' to believe. My opinion is that ample evidence exists of creation....and of a Creator. If it were not for the Bible, then each person would be 'free' to speculate on this Creator and come to their own personal conclusion.
But the Bible (and other religions for that matter) have given the Creator a name, and a character. We a ...[text shortened]... ing able to change over to Buddha now.
I hesitated to post tonight...but said what the hell.
16 Jul 16
2 edits
Originally posted by chaney3"If it were not for the Bible, then then each person would be 'free' to speculate on this Creator and come to their own personal conclusion"
It's not so much that I 'need' to believe. My opinion is that ample evidence exists of creation....and of a Creator. If it were not for the Bible, then each person would be 'free' to speculate on this Creator and come to their own personal conclusion.
Good grief. Have you never met anyone from any other religion?
This world and the human race is replete with theories and stories about creation and a "Creator".