Permanent Members of Christ's Royal Family

Originally posted by Suzianne
Why can't Grampy Bobby have his own opinions on the same topic?

Well, even Grampy Bobby himself has now said none of you Christians can or should presume to judge ~ so perhaps it is Grampy Bobby you should be asking "Why can't you presume to judge?" seeing as he has conceded the point to Rajk999 ~ making you exactly 4 hours late. 😀

Originally posted by KellyJay
LOL, I don't see why you keep going on about you changed your beliefs?
I believe you, I agree with you, you are correct, you changed your beliefs!

But you are not demonstrating any understanding of what it means. You seem to think that new beliefs held can go back and change what the old beliefs were when they were held. It just is not so.

Originally posted by KellyJay
So now your life as it stands is a judgment that while you held your old beliefs, you were not dealing with the truth, but something less than that had to be rejected and walked away from.

When I held my old beliefs I perceived myself to be "dealing with the truth" exactly as you perceive yourself to be "dealing with the truth" now.

Originally posted by FMF
When I was a Christian, I "knew Him" just in the same way as you say you "know Him" now.

How do you know that the "way" you knew Jesus is the same as the "way" Kelly (or any other professed Christian) knows him?

Originally posted by divegeester
How do you know that the the "way" you knew Jesus is the same as the "way" Kelly (or any other professed Christian) knows him?

Am I not able to make that broad claim whilst at the same time NOT claiming I was an identical Christian to Kelly or an identical human to him?

I believed that my salvation was achieved through a relationship with Jesus.

[1] Kelly Jay seems to be insinuating here that if I was not more or less exactly the same as him then my Christian beliefs were not a "real" thing in my life; failing that ~ judging by him making the same assertion over and over and over again about what he deems to be "true" and "real" to him while not accepting my personal testimony about was "true" and "real" to me back then ~ it seems [2] Kelly Jay is simply insisting that I was not a Christian more or less like him because he says so.

Originally posted by FMF
But you are not demonstrating any understanding of what it means. You seem to think that new beliefs held can go back and change what the old beliefs were when they were held. It just is not so.

I've never rejected your word saying that at the time of your old life style
that you were not being honest in what you claimed, I believe you! Where
you lose me is that you come to the point where you say you had to turn
from it, and seem to say it was real then, but not now.

I can only take you at your word for that too, if you say you thought you
had a relationship with Jesus Christ but you realized you did not really have
one, I take you at your word, you didn't have one.

I can only take your word that what you had you now deny was true. Since
it isn't true, even when you claimed you had it, it wasn't real, even if you
did believe in it, because now you reject it.
Kelly

Originally posted by FMF
When I held my old beliefs I perceived myself to be "dealing with the truth" exactly as you perceive yourself to be "dealing with the truth" now.

You think Jesus Christ is not what Christians believe in now, if you are right
that means even when you believed in Jesus, even though you agreed back
then Jesus was true back then, it was also not true then too.
Kelly

Originally posted by FMF
But you are not demonstrating any understanding of what it means. You seem to think that new beliefs held can go back and change what the old beliefs were when they were held. It just is not so.

No I don't think that is what Kelly is saying. I may be wrong but I think he is pointing out that if you still felt your belief in Christ was correct, then you would still hold to it. You don't, you now believe that you were wrong to believe that (irrespective of how sincere you thought you were were at the time).

Kelly is saying that a real connection with the living god cannot be broken and while a persons "beliefs" may change, their connection to god cannot. This is my experience also, at least to date.

I cannot choose to NOT believe in the same way that the atheists here say they cannot choose TO believe. You seem to be saying that you have chosen not to believe or have come to a realisation that you were wrong in your beliefs in the past and that you have no connection to the living God. Therefore your connection was not real in the first place. Put another way once connected to Jesus Christ a person cannot be disconnected.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Where you lose me is that you come to the point where you say you had to turn from it, and seem to say it was real then, but not now.

My beliefs changed. Do you really not understand what a change of beliefs entails and results in? You keep making comments that seem to indicate that ~ because you yourself have not had a change of beliefs since you became a Christian ~ that you simply do not know what "change of beliefs" means. My beliefs, as they are now, are not able to alter the reality of what my beliefs were in the past. When I was FMF the Christian in, say, 1994, I was not FMF the ex-Christian of 2014.

Originally posted by divegeester
Kelly is saying that a real connection with the living god cannot be broken and while a persons "beliefs" may change, their connection to god cannot. This is my experience also, at least to date.

Do you reject every case that doesn't conform to your preconception in this matter? If you do, then there may be some confirmation bias in the "experience" you are citing. I am an example of someone who had a "real connection" but now it is gone ~ due to a change in beliefs. What impact does this testimony of mine have on your "experience"?

Originally posted by divegeester
Therefore your connection was not real in the first place. Put another way once connected to Jesus Christ a person cannot be disconnected.

Neither of these assertions are true as evidenced by what happened to me.

Originally posted by FMF
My beliefs changed. Do you really not understand what a change of beliefs entails and results in? You keep making comments that seem to indicate that ~ because you yourself have not had a change of beliefs since you became a Christian ~ that you simply do not know what "change of beliefs" means. My beliefs, as they are now, are not able to alter the reality of w ...[text shortened]... in the past. When I was FMF the Christian in, say, 1994, I was not FMF the ex-Christian of 2014.

I get it you do not hold the same beliefs now as you did back then.
The beliefs you hold now reject the beliefs you had then.
Since the beliefs you hold now reject the beliefs you had then, then when
you had them according to you, you were wrong and in error! So what
keep you error for so many years according to you?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
You think Jesus Christ is not what Christians believe in now, if you are right
that means even when you believed in Jesus, even though you agreed back
then Jesus was true back then, it was also not true then too.

Presumably you believe that FMF-1994 was right about Jesus and that FMF-2014 is wrong. You surely are not saying both are wrong? How can it be "wrong" in your eyes for someone to strive for salvation by having a relationship with Jesus?

Originally posted by KellyJay
Since the beliefs you hold now reject the beliefs you had then, then when
you had them according to you, you were wrong and in error! So what
keep you error for so many years according to you?

I had Christian beliefs back then.

Originally posted by FMF
Presumably you believe that FMF-1994 was right about Jesus and that FMF-2014 is wrong. You surely are not saying both are wrong? How can it be "wrong" in your eyes for someone to strive for salvation by having a relationship with Jesus?

I'm not presuming anything, I've read your words. You claimed you held
Christian beliefs, and then you realized those beliefs were wrong so you
rejected them. That means the beliefs were wrong according to you, and
you needed to reject them! I'm so looking forward to getting the T-shirt.

That does mean that before you had this change of heart you were in error
according to your new beliefs. Since when you had them you were wrong,
this I assume is true just because you said you rejected them.
Kelly