Permanent Members of Christ's Royal Family

Originally posted by KellyJay
Ask me whatever you want, I try to answer as honestly as possible.
Kelly

You already answered the page 3 question on page 12 ~ and in so doing directly contradicted Grampy Bobby's "doctrine"

Originally posted by FMF
The words "lying", "faking it", "deceived" and "tricked" are words you yourself have used, not words you have put in my mouth. That is why I put quotation marks around them.

As for my own words ~ yes ~ I put them in my mouth.

Yes trying to figure out why you were holding the views you now reject.
If you rejected the views, then something was amiss since you had them for
a very long time according to you. Were you lied too, was someone faking
things, were you tricked, were you faking what was true or not since you
seemed to play along to get along? What kept you in the error you now see?
Kelly

Originally posted by divegeester

For example let's suppose for a moment that god reveals himself to you (I'm using your phrase) at some point the future and you come to realise that actually you do have a connection with Jesus Christ after all. Would you say that what you believe now in 2014 was correct or incorrect? You would say it was incorrect, but you would hold that you sincerely believed it to be true in 2014, the same way you hold that you were incorrect but sincere 20 years ago.

This is a bit of a red herring hypothetical because the real story of me IS about the issue of revelation. If it's the real story then there's no need to make up a story that is something different from the real story. My change of beliefs came about when I realized that God had not revealed Himself to me. And that is my position now. Prior to that, I believed He had. And it was real to me. However the belief that I had that God had revealed Himself to me was not and is not strong enough to attract me back.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Were you lied too, was someone faking things, were you tricked, were you faking what was true or not since you seemed to play along to get along?

What on earth are you talking about?

Originally posted by FMF
[b]For example let's suppose for a moment that god reveals himself to you (I'm using your phrase) at some point the future and you come to realise that actually you do have a connection with Jesus Christ after all. Would you say that what you believe now in 2014 was correct or incorrect? You would say it was incorrect, but you would hold that you sincerely belie ...[text shortened]... t I had that God had revealed Himself to me was not and is not strong enough to attract me back.

I tell you what, I feel like you and I have gone over all things we have
said to each other a couple of times. I'm going to drop my questions and
you may get the last word if you desire. I'll only respond if you ask me too.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Yes trying to figure out why you were holding the views you now reject.

The beliefs that underpinned my Christian faith changed.

Originally posted by FMF
What on earth are you talking about?

I'll continue this if you want me to, or we can stop here if you desire.
I'll bow to your request.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'll only respond if you ask me too.

Sure. I'd be happy enough if you'd actually respond to some of the points that I have made along the way. You have been just cranking out the same little cluster of assertions over and over and over again and not really engaging any of the various ways I have tried to explain, answer and illustrate my position. Shall I compile a few of them? Then you could respond to them ~ not in a generic way ~ but explicitly. How about that?

edit: give me a while ~ I'll slap together 4 or 5 points I made that you brushed past.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'll continue this if you want me to, or we can stop here if you desire.

You are talking about "lies" and being "tricked" and "playing along" and "faking" and being "deceived". What things are you referring to? I have already said, pages ago, that I was not and am not "lying" and I was not "faking it". Why are you still bandying this stuff about? You already asked me about it and i already answered it. Why are you persisting with it?

Originally posted by FMF
[b]For example let's suppose for a moment that god reveals himself to you (I'm using your phrase) at some point the future and you come to realise that actually you do have a connection with Jesus Christ after all. Would you say that what you believe now in 2014 was correct or incorrect? You would say it was incorrect, but you would hold that you sincerely belie ...[text shortened]... t I had that God had revealed Himself to me was not and is not strong enough to attract me back.

Here's why there is no resolution to this:

I believe you were either saved (if you will allow the expression) 20 years ago or you were not yet saved 20 years ago.

You now believe that there was no salvation to be had then nor now and therefore the point is moot.

Originally posted by divegeester
Here's why there is no resolution to this:

I believe you were either saved (if you will allow the expression) 20 years ago or you were not yet saved 20 years ago.

You now believe that there was no salvation to be had then nor now and therefore the point is moot.

I don't think there's anything you could say that would convince me that you know something about "salvation" that I would also believe. Just as I don't think there's anything you or Kelly can say that alters what was and wasn't real to me back in the days when I probably, more or less, shared your beliefs about "salvation".

Originally posted by FMF
I don't think there's anything you could say that would convince me that you know something about "salvation" that I would also believe. Just as I don't think there's anything you or Kelly can say that alters what was and wasn't real to me back in the days when I probably, more or less, shared your beliefs about "salvation".

Nor do I. I'm trying to be as objective as possible.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'll only respond if you ask me too.

Yes, OK. Please respond to these three attempts to answer your questions and assertions that were kind of swallowed up and ignored is all the questions to me that seemed to be the same over and over and over again. And I am hoping for something specific about these three points, not the generic stuff about 'rejection' and 'faking it' and 'error'. They are verbatim:

1. Presumably you believe that FMF-1994 was right about Jesus and that FMF-2014 is wrong. You surely are not saying both are wrong? How can it be "wrong" in your eyes for someone to strive for salvation by having a relationship with Jesus?

2. When I held my old beliefs I perceived myself to be "dealing with the truth" exactly as you perceive yourself to be "dealing with the truth" now.

3. If you apply the logic of your peculiar technique of 'retrospective erasing' [of someone else's beliefs] to yourself, it means that no one knows ~ including yourself ~ whether you are a Christian right now. I don't think you want to apply this logic to yourself. So why do you insist on applying it to me?

Originally posted by divegeester
Nor do I. I'm trying to be as objective as possible.

Does your "experience" embrace new things you encounter and thus modify your perceptions constantly, or does your "experience" serve as a mechanism for sifting through and perhaps rejecting testimony or evidence that do not fit unchanging perceptions?

Originally posted by FMF
Does your "experience" embrace new things you encounter and thus modify your perceptions constantly, or does your "experience" serve as a mechanism for sifting through and perhaps rejecting testimony or evidence that do not fit unchanging perceptions?

Not sure, bit of both I think.