Permanent Members of Christ's Royal Family

Originally posted by FMF
Thanks for your comments. Aside from the 'once saved always saved' notion and its opposite, another pair of apparently contradictory assertions on the table on this thread is [my paraphrasing] 'once a Christian, always a Christian, like it or not' versus 'an ex-Christian was never a Christian'. Where do you come down on these two notions, seemingly from two different religions?

Here are some of the questions I would like for you to answer:

1. What changed you from a believer in Christ to an unbeliever?

2. Why don't you believe that the Shroud of Turin is the burial cloth of the resurrected Christ?

3. Do you believe you will never again become a believer in Christ as your savior?

Originally posted by Rajk999
Why do you take it upon yourself to tell people who is saved and who is not.

God alone knows; none of us can or should presume to judge even when public declarations pro or con are made.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Here are some of the questions I would like for you to answer:

1. What changed you from a believer in Christ to an unbeliever?

I stopped accepting the claims that Christians make about Christ and no longer subscribed to the credibility of the literature. I think this resulted from a process of spiritual maturation that I underwent as I grew out of my 'young adult' years and broadened my horizons. Christians might call it a "spiritual shipwreck" ~ as one did on this thread ~ and I understand why they would, but to me it was more of a 'coming to my senses'.

2. Why don't you believe that the Shroud of Turin is the burial cloth of the resurrected Christ?

Of course, I realize that as a Christian, you believe Jesus rose from the dead, and as a fringe/ultra-credulous Christian you believe the Shroud of Turin is some sort of "proof" that He did. But I am not a Christian. To me the Shroud of Turin is an old and dirty piece of cloth and your obsession with it, to my way of thinking anyway, exhibits a deep down, perhaps subconscious insecurity about your faith, leading you to cling to this old and dirty cloth to pep yourself up or satisfy some sort of similar psychological need, perhaps arising from the regurgitatory and independent-thought-suppressing nature of your beliefs.

3. Do you believe you will never again become a believer in Christ as your savior?

I don't think so. While Christianity can lead to some instances of groupism, common purpose, and idealism, that can have positive and fruitful results, the mythology itself, for me, fails the spirituality test. Settling for the curiosity-smothering package it offers would be selling myself short. As an element of, or function of, philosophy, anthropology and psychology [and other disciplines], Christianity is interesting, but on a spiritual level it does not work.I know this from first hand experience.

Originally posted by FMF
[b]1. What changed you from a believer in Christ to an unbeliever?

I stopped accepting the claims that Christians make about Christ and no longer subscribed to the credibility of the literature. I think this resulted from a process of spiritual maturation that I underwent as I grew out of my 'young adult' years and broadened my horizons. Christians might ...[text shortened]... s interesting, but on a spiritual level it does not work.I know this from first hand experience.[/b]

You say a lot a things about, "Christianity" and as I pointed out to you when
you and I first started talking in this thread it is Jesus Christ that is important.
You've never knew him according to you, you claimed you used to believe in
him yes, but you now claim never knew Him, because He was never real to
know.

For your sake, I hope you find Jesus, otherwise you end up where you are
going.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
You say a lot a things about, "Christianity" and as I pointed out to you when you and I first started talking in this thread it is Jesus Christ that is important. You've never knew him according to you, you claimed you used to believe in him yes, but you now claim never knew Him, because He was never real to know.

My beliefs have changed, Kelly.

The belief that I "knew" Jesus when I was a Christian was something real and true to me at that time. He was "real" to me back then, just like he is "real" to you now.

The personal reality that my beliefs create for me now cannot reach back in time and alter the personal reality that my beliefs created for me when I was a Christian. It just cannot be done.

It would be like a person who ~ to use some fragments from your analogy ~ used to live in Chicago saying he had never lived in Chicago because now he lives in New York.


You tell me that Jesus is "real" to you and you "know" him. If you lose your faith in a few years from now, no Christian will be able to reach back to 2014 and claim that you weren't a Christian who "knew" Jesus etc. etc. at this point in your life.

If you apply the logic of your peculiar technique of 'retrospective erasing' [of someone else's beliefs] to yourself, it means that no one knows ~ including yourself ~ whether you are a Christian right now. I don't think you want to apply this logic to yourself. So why do you insist on applying it to me?

Originally posted by FMF
[b]1. What changed you from a believer in Christ to an unbeliever?

I stopped accepting the claims that Christians make about Christ and no longer subscribed to the credibility of the literature. I think this resulted from a process of spiritual maturation that I underwent as I grew out of my 'young adult' years and broadened my horizons. Christians might ...[text shortened]... s interesting, but on a spiritual level it does not work.I know this from first hand experience.[/b]

Reply to answer 1:

Yes I understand, for I was baptized at age 12 as a believer, but a few short years later I was comparing the miracles of the Bible with the myths of Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny and my doubts became so strong that I was attending Church less and less.

Reply to Answer 2.

I was already a strong believer again by the time I heard of the Shroud of Turin. However, at that time I believed it was a fake as you do now. It was not until I considered more evidence (scientific, historical, and biblical) that I came to believe it is genuine.

Reply to Answer 3:

I hope you find something that works for you and I wish you well.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I was already a strong believer again by the time I heard of the Shroud of Turin.

To me your preoccupation with 'creation literalism' and stuff like 'the Shroud of Turin' makes your faith sound contrived and come across like a kind of ego trip ~ arbitrary, partisan, abrasive and stubborn, just for the sake of it, profoundly anti-intellectual, and proudly non-commonsensical.

This is why I have said several times that you don't seem very spiritual to me, and instead you seem more like a sports fan whose faith amounts to little more than cocking the snook at people in a chat room.

To me, neither a religionist nor an atheist, your preoccupation with 'the Shroud of Turin' makes your faith sound weak [whether you recognize it or not] and more inclined towards being propped up by self-boosting bluster.

You feel you have a ministry here on this forum, clearly. Do you think anyone seeks to emulate you and the impact your "spirituality" has on your intellectual and interpersonal skills?

Originally posted by RJHinds
I hope you find something that works for you and I wish you well.

Thanks. I'm in a good place now. I was convinced I was in a good place for many years as a Christian. But I am in a far better place now ~ now that I have unencumbered myself from all that. 🙂

Originally posted by FMF
My beliefs have changed, Kelly.

The belief that I "knew" Jesus when I was a Christian was something real and true to me at that time. He was "real" to me back then, just like he is "real" to you now.

The personal reality that my beliefs create for me now cannot reach back in time and alter the personal reality that my beliefs created for me when I was a C ...[text shortened]... don't think you want to apply this logic to yourself. So why do you insist on applying it to me?

Yes, your beliefs have changed. You have said that so many times you
should just get it printed on a T-shirt. I am telling you, that had you really
known Jesus you would not then turn around and say what you had was
not real. You had a belief, I get that, it was there a long time ago, then it
was not! Beliefs like opinions can change on a dime, new information can
come in and force you to look at something differently.

We are talking about Jesus Christ, not a "belief system" either you knew
Him or you did not. If you were mistaken that you actually thought you had
was real, and then you come to realize that was not the case, that means
your old beliefs were there because were you either deceived, or tricked you into
making claims that were not true. It would also be possible that you simply
faked it all to fit in and I say that because you claim it isn't real now, and
since it is not real now it never was never real even when you proclaimed
it, since you now tell us what you had was false and had to be rejected.

You left something whatever it was you claim you had, but what you had
wasn't the real thing which was a relationship with Jesus Christ. You can
go on and claim, no it was real for me back then...I've never disagreed with
that part of your story, just your claims you really knew Jesus Christ since
you now claim I assume that you don't think anyone really knows Him or
ever could.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I am telling you, that had you really known Jesus you would not then turn around and say what you had was not real.

But I am not saying that I thought what I had was not real. You keep looking at my beliefs in the past through the prism of my changed beliefs in the present.

Originally posted by KellyJay
We are talking about Jesus Christ, not a "belief system" either you knew
Him or you did not.

When I was a Christian, I "knew Him" just in the same way as you say you "know Him" now.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Why do you take it upon yourself to tell people who is saved and who is not.

Clearly, you have your own opinions on this very topic because we hear them from you regularly.

Why can't GB have his own opinions on the same topic?

Remember that you have to remove the beam from your own eye before you can see to remove the mote from your brother's eye.

Originally posted by KellyJay
It would also be possible that you simply faked it all to fit in and I say that because you claim it isn't real now, and since it is not real now it never was never real even when you proclaimed it, since you now tell us what you had was false and had to be rejected.

But I have told you several times that I wasn't "faking it" and that I am not "lying" now, nor was I "lying" then. If I do make t-shirts with "My beliefs changed" on them, I will give the first one to you. On the back will be a little text explaining what changed beliefs entail [because you simply do not seem to understand]. My changed beliefs now do not alter what my beliefs were 20 years ago.

Originally posted by KellyJay
...your old beliefs were there because were you either deceived, or tricked you into making claims that were not true.

Where are you getting all these accusations from? Are you talking about a relative or a neighbour you know?

Who is it you are claiming I was "deceived" or "tricked" by? I haven't been "making claims that were not true". What are you on about?

Are you actually talking about yourself and your own faith in some odd, projected and indirect way?

Originally posted by FMF
But I have told you several times that I wasn't "faking it" and that I am not "lying" now, nor was I "lying" then. If I do make t-shirts with "My beliefs changed" on them, I will give the first one to you. On the back will be a little text explaining what changed beliefs entail [because you simply do not seem to understand]. My changed beliefs now do not alter what my beliefs were 20 years ago.

LOL, I don't see why you keep going on about you changed your beliefs?
I believe you, I agree with you, you are correct, you changed your beliefs!

We can call that settled, you no longer hold your old beliefs!

That said, you now have new beliefs that claim your old beliefs were wrong!
Since that is true, your life is a testament about how someone who now
holds your old beliefs are wrong to do so. So now your life as it stands is
a judgment that while you held your old beliefs, you were not dealing with
the truth, but something less than that had to be rejected and walked away
from.
Kelly