Permanent Members of Christ's Royal Family

Originally posted by FMF
Neither of these assertions are true as evidenced by what happened to me.

But this is the problem, neither you nor Kelly actually know what happened to you. Kelly because he wasn't there and you because you rejected whatever it was that happened, presumably (at least in part) because you felt you had no connection to Jesus Christ after all.

If you were correct to change your beliefs, then you had no connection with Christ at that time and therefore nor do you now. If you were incorrect in changing your belief (I.e. You had a connection with Christ) then you had a connection then and you still have it (albeit imperceptibly) now.

You cannot find resolution to this debate when one person comes from the point of view that the risen Christ doesn't exist, and the other person does. It is impossible.

Originally posted by KellyJay
You claimed you held Christian beliefs, and then you realized those beliefs were wrong so you rejected them. That means the beliefs were wrong according to you, and you needed to reject them!

I didn't think my Christian beliefs were wrong prior to my beliefs changing.

Originally posted by FMF
I had Christian beliefs back then.

Yes, I got that! You had them, then you rejected them which means you
acknowledge that even when you had them you too were wrong and in the
moments you believed you knew Jesus, you really didn't know Him.
Kelly

Originally posted by FMF
I didn't think my Christian beliefs were wrong prior to my beliefs changing.

I agree, if you didn't think they were wrong you still have those beliefs.
That is not what happen now is it?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'm not presuming anything, I've read your words.

Oh? I read your words too and you have presumed that I am "lying", that I was "lying", that I was "faking it", that I was "deceived" by someone, that I was "tricked" by someone... how can you seriously now say you're "not presuming anything"?

Originally posted by KellyJay
I agree, if you didn't think they were wrong you still have those beliefs.
That is not what happen now is it?
Kelly

What happened was my beliefs changed. How many times do you need me to say this to you? You don't seem to get what a change in beliefs involves.

Originally posted by FMF
Am I not able to make that broad claim whilst at the same time NOT claiming I was an identical Christian to Kelly or an identical human to him?

I believed that my salvation was achieved through a relationship with Jesus.

[1] Kelly Jay seems to be insinuating here that if I was not more or less exactly the same as him then my Christian beliefs were not a " ...[text shortened]... lly Jay is simply insisting that I was not a Christian more or less like him because he says so.

I'm not comparing myself to you, I'm only taking you at your word.
Kelly

Originally posted by divegeester
You cannot find resolution to this debate when one person comes from the point of view that the risen Christ doesn't exist, and the other person does. It is impossible.

I used to think that the risen Christ exists. There is nothing either you or Kelly can do or say to alter that fact.

Originally posted by FMF
Oh? I read your words too and you have presumed that I am "lying", that I was "lying", that I was "faking it", that I was "deceived" by someone, that I was "tricked" by someone... how can you seriously now say you're "not presuming anything"?

You said you reject the beliefs you once held!
You said that which you once believe is not true.
I believe you.
What you had wasn't true or real.
I'm not putting words in your mouth, you are the only one doing that!
If what you had was an error, if it wasn't true, than what you had was an
error and not true.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'm not comparing myself to you, I'm only taking you at your word.

Not so. If you had been willing to take me at my word, we could have just carried on with the thread topic discussion on page 3.

Originally posted by KellyJay
What you had wasn't true or real.

It was "true or real" to me back then. Just as it continues to be "true or real" to you now.

Originally posted by FMF
I used to think that the risen Christ exists. There is nothing either you or Kelly can do or say to alter that fact.

No one is saying anything differently outside of you!
You once believed, then you rejected what you believed.
You changed your mind, I have a T-shirt on order through you to prove it.
So when you held those beliefs, according to you it wasn't true.
Kelly

Originally posted by FMF
Not so. If you had been willing to take me at my word, we could have just carried on with the thread topic discussion on page 3.

Ask me whatever you want, I try to answer as honestly as possible.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'm not putting words in your mouth, you are the only one doing that!

The words "lying", "faking it", "deceived" and "tricked" are words you yourself have used, not words you have put in my mouth. That is why I put quotation marks around them.

As for my own words ~ yes ~ I put them in my mouth.

Originally posted by FMF
I used to think that the risen Christ exists. There is nothing either you or Kelly can do or say to alter that fact.

Indeed, and I never would.

What you genuinely believe is reality to you, my point is that in actual fact the real reality could be something different.

For example let's suppose for a moment that god reveals himself to you (I'm using your phrase) at some point the future and you come to realise that actually you do have a connection with Jesus Christ after all. Would you say that what you believe now in 2014 was correct or incorrect? You would say it was incorrect, but you would hold that you sincerely believed it to be true in 2014, the same way you hold that you were incorrect but sincere 20 years ago.