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03 Nov 16
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Originally posted by Rajk999
Paul in Romans never once said that all those who profess Christ have the Spirit of Christ.
The following passage would indicate the if Christ is not in the person and he proclaims that he is a Christian, he is disapproved. He is not a true believer in Christ.
" Test yourselves whether you are in the faith; prove yourselves.
Or do you not realize about yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved? " (2 Cor. 13:5)
Being "in the faith" means being a Christian.
Those who are "in the faith" and are not "disapproved" must realize the true situation of their being - "Jesus Christ is IN you."
" Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him." (Rom. 8:9)
Now a person may not be too clear that Jesus Christ has actually entered into him.
But Paul encourages such to BE clear about the fact.
He does not encourage ambiguity but rather certainty.
The truth for the Christian is not primarily about his feelings but about the word of God first. The Christian should test herself. He should test himself to see if he is legitimately "in the [Christian] faith"
The one believing in the Son of God and receiving Him as Lord and Savior should realize that Jesus Christ is in him. He has "the Spirit of Christ" and is therefore "of Him" and is a Christian.
In the following reference Rajk999 misunderstands Paul's usage of "death".
How do I know?
Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.(Romans 8:12-14 KJV)
When Paul, in the previous chapter, says "Who will deliver me from the body of this death? he was talking about the weakness of his sinning body, to obey God. He was not physically dead YET. But he was captured as a slave to "the body of this death".
" Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from the body of this death?
Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord! " (Rom. 7:24,25a)
If the Christian does not set his mind on the regenerated human spirit where the Spirit of Christ is dwelling, he will still be a wretched captive of "the body of t his death".
Thus Paul, in chapter 8, talking about walking by the Spirit and setting the mind on the human spirit made one with the Holy Spirit, says in essence .
If you do not set the mind on the united spirit with the Holy Spirit you are still captive to the law of sin in your members and still beholden to "the body of this death" IE. You are about to DIE (in that sense). Helpless, weak, alive to sin, powerless, captive to sinning, wretched, self condemned.
To fail to set the mind on the spirit is death.
And to set the mind on the spirit is "life and peace" in contrast to the darkness, depression, weakness of death.
"For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace." (v.6)
I am a Christian.
I have been redeemed.
I have the gift of eternal life.
I have the promise of eternal redemption.
But in my daily walk today, if I do not practice to set my mind on my regenerated spirit where the Spirit of God bears witness with my spirit that I am one of the children of God, I am about to die. That is the dying of wretchedness, lack of power, shortage of divine supply, weakness, depression, self condemnation.
In contrast, if I set my mind on the mingled spirit where the Spirit of Christ is, I am freed from the law of sin and death, freed from wretchedness, freed from self condemnation, made bright, made living, made powerful, made victorious, made overcoming.
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03 Nov 16
2 edits
Here Paul addresses Christian brothers, and he clearly identifies two types
- Christians who live after the flesh [ie sin] and who will die.
- Those who live through the Spirit [ie the commandments of Christ], they will live.
When Paul says "you are about to die" for failing to set the mind on the Spirit in the spirit, he is talking about the death described in chapter 7.
Many Christians who walk by the Spirit may physically die.
And Christians who do not mature or learn to walk by the Spirit may physically die too.
What Paul is trying to produce is the former type for whom he has just been speaking in verses 1 through 12 which I will not quote in full.
But here are a few highlights.
Verses 1,2 "There is now then no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death."
"That the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the spirit. " (v.4)
"For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace." (v.6)
"But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness." (v.10)
In verse 10 "the body is dead" does not mean physically dead.
Death has the meaning of separation very many times in the Bible.
So in verse 13 as well as in verse 6 to fail to set the mind on the regenerated spirit of man WHERE the Spirit of Christ comes to indwell, is to be captive to the body of sin. And that he says means "about to die".
But the mind set on the spirit where the Spirit of Jesus is [divine] LIFE ... and peace.
Rajk999 reads the New Testament with very little experience personally or proper understanding. He uses his natural mind to try to make something out of the words when he lacks experience and enlightenment spiritually.
Rajk999's teaching of Romans and other NT books is dumbed down to his superficial religiosity and legalism of a "confidence in the flesh" carnality posing to be spiritual.
03 Nov 16
Originally posted by sonshipNot all Christians have the Spirit of Christ.. . some do and some do not.
This is a false teaching of Rajk999.
The New Testament says emphatically -
[b] " Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him." (Romans 8:9b)
Now you may say " I cannot see the Spirit of Christ in the way he live ...[text shortened]...
The phrase "...he is not of Him" we should take to mean he is not a Christian.[/b]perhaps Rajk can explain his reasoning for I must admit the idea struck me as rather strange too.
03 Nov 16
Originally posted by sonshipYou are entitled to twist the Bible all you like to suit your doctrines, thats your choice but, I will take it as Paul said it. Pertaining to Christians, Paul and the Apostles were crustal clear that not all who claim to believe in Christ will enter the Kingdom of God. Not all who are given Gods Spirit /Christ Spirit/Holy Spirit, will get into the Kingdom of God. Not all who claim to be sons of God are in fact sons of God.
Here Paul addresses Christian brothers, and he clearly identifies two types
- Christians who live after the flesh [ie sin] and who will die.
- Those who live through the Spirit [ie the commandments of Christ], they will live.
When Paul says [b]"you are about to die" for failing to set the mind on the Spirit in the spirit, he ...[text shortened]... ficial religiosity and legalism of a "confidence in the flesh" carnality posing to be spiritual.[/b]
Some will fall away, some will be destroyed, some will be refused forgiveness, because they did not live lives pleasing to God. There are clear warnings to Christian saints [which you ignorantly ignore], to live lives free from worldliness and sin and full of good works, but you are the dog that returns to his vomit of evil.
So twist away.
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03 Nov 16
Originally posted by robbie carrobieNot to speak for Rajk, but I would suggest that catholic priests, for example, who abused the children in their care did not have God's spirit, despite being Christian.
that not all Christians have Gods spirit.
Surely it is a Christian's actions that reveal whether or not God's spirit is within them?
03 Nov 16
Originally posted by robbie carrobieChristians vary in their interpretation of what is God's Spirit and how it manifests itself in the life of the follower of Christ.
that not all Christians have Gods spirit.
But regardless, my point is that initially Gods Spirit is dispensed in different ways to ALL Christians. This however does not necessarily remain throughout the life of the Christian. It depends on how 'spirit' this is used. In some Christians evil forces overtake them and they are consumed and fall away, like in the case provided by GoDuke. In his example Gods Spirit cannot be in or with those who commit such depraved acts of evil.
03 Nov 16
Originally posted by Ghost of a Dukeyes, its actually quite interesting. It seems that God can withdraw his spirit for some reason, either to suite his purpose or because the recipient is unworthy. I think in the case of Israel's first King Saul, God withdrew his spirit because Saul became haughty or disobeyed the direction he was given after which Saul became sullen and gloomy and agitated.
Not to speak for Rajk, but I would suggest that catholic priests, for example, who abused the children in their care did not have God's spirit, despite being Christian.
Surely it is a Christian's actions that reveal whether or not God's spirit is within them?
03 Nov 16
1 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999Yes that makes sense. Perhaps its Jaywills interpretation of the spirit, he thinking it is a personage that has led him to the idea that its not possible for God to withdraw his spirit from someone, even someone that he personally chose. This is demonstrably false. Its a symptom of the once saved always saved neo-Calvinistic doctrine of predetermination.
Christians vary in their interpretation of what is God's Spirit and how it manifests itself in the life of the follower of Christ.
But regardless, my point is that initially Gods Spirit is dispensed in different ways to ALL Christians. This however does not necessarily remain throughout the life of the Christian. It depends on how 'spirit' this is used. I ...[text shortened]... ke. In his example Gods Spirit cannot be in or with those who commit such depraved acts of evil.
So Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the presence of his brothers. And the spirit of Jehovah began to empower David from that day forward. Samuel later rose and went his way to Raʹmah. Now the spirit of Jehovah had departed from Saul. . .1 Samuel 16
03 Nov 16
Originally posted by robbie carrobieGood example, and there are similar ones in the NT as well - Judas and Ananias and Saphira .. all Christian saints who turned to evil and who demonstrates the negative side of Romans 8. Sonships doctrine of oncesavedalwayssaved is false . Certainly there are some in the time of Christ who were told of their status and their guaranteed position in the Kingdom of God but to apply that principle across the board to all the billions of Christians shows a complete lack of understanding
Yes that makes sense. Perhaps its Jaywills interpretation of the spirit, he thinking it is a personage that has led him to the idea that its not possible for God to withdraw his spirit from someone, even someone that he personally chose. This is demonstrably false. Its a symptom of the once saved always saved neo-Calvinistic doctrine of predetermin ...[text shortened]... ose and went his way to Raʹmah. Now the spirit of Jehovah had departed from Saul. . .1 Samuel 16
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03 Nov 16
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Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Perhaps its Jaywills interpretation of the spirit, he thinking it is a personage that has led him to the idea that its not possible for God to withdraw his spirit from someone,
In the New Testament a distinction exists between the spirit of man and the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit.
Some proofs:
1.) Paul mentions TWO spirits in Romans 8:16
"The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God." (Rom. 8:16)
The Spirit Himself is one Person - the Holy Spirit
Our spirit is the human spirit.
This passage obviously involves the Spirit of God and the spirit of man.
2.) The human spirit is mentioned when Paul tells us that he served God in his [Paul's] spirit in chapter 1.
" For God is my witness, whom I serve in my spirit in the gospel of His Son ..." (Rom. 1:9)
By "my spirit" Paul means his regenerated human spirit.
Of course we have just noticed that as a typical Christian his spirit is joined to the Holy Spirit Who bears witness with his spirit that he is a child in life of God. See 1.) .
3.) The two spirits - the human spirit and the Third of the Trinity, are joined when one receives Jesus Christ.
"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)
It is difficult sometimes to know whether the English spirit should be capital S or small s.
Since the TWO spirits are united, mingled and joined they are ONE.
The opposite of "one spirit" is of course more than one spirit. But Paul's burden is for the Christian to see that the two distinct spirits have become one within the believer.
Paul served God with this his spirit which was now one spirit with the Lord. See 2.)
Now Some people may begin to cry at this point "This is too complicated. This is not simple. We want something simple. Why be so intricate and complicated ?"
Well what can be done? Since the Lord IS the Spirit, for the Spirit to be united with the humans spirit is for Jesus Christ Himself to be WITH the Christian's spirit. I am so sorry simple ones. But it is true:
" The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you." (2 Tim. 4:22).
Since the Lord Jesus Christ is WITH the believer's spirit, the enjoyment of Him being united with the believer - IE "the grace" is ALSO with his spirit.
" The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you." (2 Tim. 4:22)
" The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit." (Phil. 4:23)
" The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen" ( Gal. 6:18)
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit." (Philemon 25)
These verses are easy for people to take for granted. And some people dismiss them as just some flowery talk. But the word of God is specific and true.
Paul the Apostle serves God in his spirit because the Lord is with his spirit, the grace of the Lord is with his spirit, the Spirit of Christ bears witness with his spirit, and his spirit is joined to the Lord to be "one spirit"
Notice how often the Jehovah's Witness will lean more heavily on the Old Testament for their talk about the Spirit. Yes, in the Old Testament the Spirit came upon some people and we may have some talk about God withdrawing the Spirit.
As is typical among Russell's students, the lack of new covenant experience leads them to put more emphasis on the old covenant and the Old Testament.
In the New Testament, without possibility of dispute, the Holy Spirit is made "one spirit" with the believer in Christ (1 Cor. 6:17) . And without dispute Jesus said He would give the Spirit to the disciples to be with them "FOREVER"
" And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may be with you FOREVER." (John 14:16)
He is not on temporary LOAN.
He is not given for the saints to borrow temporarily.
He is to be with the believers in Jesus - FOREVER
Now what to expect. Expect now Rajk999 to come slobbery in insisting that for me to teach this means that I LOVE sinning.
As soon as we teach accurately that the Holy Spirit is given to the new covenant Christians to be with them FOREVER, Rajk999 will immediately use that to accuse us of wanting to live loose, sinful, permissive lives, gloating and boasting that we can stay the same sinful persons we were before we received Christ.
This is his cherished forte accusation against the brothers in Christ.
Security of the Holy Spirit's indwelling HAS to mean to Rajk999, loving to be sinful Christians.
Readers, please do not think this is the first time I have explained any of this to these two posters.
03 Nov 16
Originally posted by sonshipBUT .. SOME FALL INTO EVIL.Perhaps its Jaywills interpretation of the spirit, he thinking it is a personage that has led him to the idea that its not possible for God to withdraw his spirit from someone,
In the New Testament a distinction exists between the spirit of man and the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit.
Some proofs:
[b]1.) Paul mentions T ...[text shortened]... s, please do not think this is the first time I have explained any of this to these two posters.[/b]
Hence Paul warns :
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. (1 Corinthians 3:17 KJV)
God will destroy them.
Nobody is boasting about anything ... you moron !
Notice how often the Jehovah's Witness will lean more heavily on the Old Testament for their talk about the Spirit. - jaywill
This is a nonsense and is only apparent because of your bias towards the Christian Greek scriptures at the almost exclusion of everything else that you hold this view. Ironic to say the least.