@fmf saidThat's one way.
Because of fealty to a particular theologian.
I have a friend that has gone so far off into left field that any meaningful discussion of biblical topics is severely curtailed.
It is a known fact that there are those that "torture the text to make it confess" to whatever their beliefs demand.
The safest place to be with regards to biblical exegesis is to allow the scriptures to say what they mean and mean what they say. No adding to or taking away, not only the words, but the intent.
@ghost-of-a-duke saidWell, I guess I'm just a fundamentalist with a traditional view of scripture. There is a simplicity about the Bible that can tend to allude some. I'm also a minimalist in that I read the Bible and let it say what it says without trying to add to or take away from the clear meaning of the text.
This is sonship in a nutshell.
2 Peter 1:2,3
¶ Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
A simple verse, but in no wise simplistic. They are loaded verses. 47 words. Each relative to the whole, in a narrow sense, and in the broader sense the whole letter, building a construct that conveys a piece of knowledge and understanding, with no hidden meanings.
That's my two cents.
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@josephw
I think you misunderstood the reasoning's purpose.
It was to show alternative ways in which we might understand we being like Him.
One being - we are like one another since His incarnation.
Which to some degree is absolutely true - minus the sin nature.
Another being - we will be like Him (more so) in the future.
This is the sense of 1 John 3:2.
I was not twisting Scriture. Perhaps I was over thinking alternative ways of thinking about the concept. That is imagining how one might approach the issue.
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Josephw,
So back up a bit. Do you agree that for us to be like Him regards something more than having a body of immortality?
And if so, can you see a process of some kind is necessary to take that (other than physical part) of our being to become "like Him?"
I hope you would say Yes.
Then I would ask you is that something WE can do alone soley out of our our own life and powers? Or the process something God must do with our allowance and cooperation?
Don't you agree that SOMETHING of a divine [ ______ification] (of some sort) God must do to take us from self likeness to Christ likeness?
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A simple verse, but in no wise simplistic. They are loaded verses. 47 words. Each relative to the whole, in a narrow sense, and in the broader sense the whole letter, building a construct that conveys a piece of knowledge and understanding, with no hidden meanings.
That's my two cents.
Do you think that when the Apostle Paul wrote "That God would give you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of Him, the eyes of your heart having been enlightened, that you may know the hope of His calling and what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints" (Eph. 1:17,18)
that he was encouraging Christians to invent "hidden meanings" in Scripture?
I don't think he was encouraging us to hunt out "hidden meanings". I think he was hoping we would really have a deeper appreciation for the meaning.
Ie. Did you ever notice here it says "His [God's] inheritance in the saints?"
We all readily grasp that WE are going to inherit some blessing. But this verse says that God is going to inherit a rich inheritance IN His saints. I don't think this is concocting hidden meanings. I think this is enlareging our capacity to really see the nature of His work of salvation.
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@sonship saidWhy are you flogging a dead horse when Jospeh has stated:
@josephw
A simple verse, but in no wise simplistic. They are loaded verses. 47 words. Each relative to the whole, in a narrow sense, and in the broader sense the whole letter, building a construct that conveys a piece of knowledge and understanding, with no hidden meanings.
That's my two cents.
Do you think that when the Apostle Paul wrote [b]"T ...[text shortened]... meanings. I think this is enlareging our capacity to really see the nature of His work of salvation.
'Clearly we are not "like" Jesus yet, nor will we "be like him" until he "shall appear".
Why "wrest" with the scriptures to make them appear to say something not actually said? '
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@Ghost-of-a-Duke
I don't know what you're talking about.
You are still incapable of showing where twisting of 93% of the meaning of the following passage occured - 2 Cor. 7-12
v. 7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power may be of God and not out of us.
I twisted exacty what?
What did I explain that negates the plain teaching of this verse?
v.8 We are pressed on every side but not constricted; unable to find a way out but not utterly without a way out.
Exactly what did I twist out of context?
v.9 Presecuted but not abandoned; cast down but not destroyed.
How was this twisted?
v.10 Always bearing about in the body the putting to death of Jesus that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body.
Are we to at least 60% yet?
How did I twist this verse?
v.11 For we who are alive are always being delivered unto death for Jesus sake' that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh.
Where did I twisted away anything to harm the meaning?
v.12 So then death operates in us, but life in you.
You should have gotten to 93% of the passage by now.
Show how I twisted this verse?
@sonship
"I think you misunderstood the reasoning's purpose.
It was to show alternative ways in which we might understand we being like Him."
I think that for you to say I "misunderstood" is a catch all for dismissing and misunderstanding what I said. I did not misunderstand anything you said.
I don't need any "alternative ways" of knowing Jesus. I have the scriptures.
You cite only one verse, and make a theological mountain out of it saying things it doesn't say.
For example: you state, "we are like one another since His incarnation."
Where did that come from? There are no verses to support that assertion. I know because I checked.
Look at this verse from Hebrews 2, "For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people."
He was made like unto his brethren. That in no wise made his "brethren like unto him" because, which of his brethren could make "reconciliation for the sins of the people"?
"we are like one another since His incarnation."
That assertion is unsupported by any verse of scripture I can find.
No man ever born was ever like Jesus. Jesus is singularly unique, and no one is like him.
"...it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him..."
It says we don't know what we shall be, and we know we will be like him when he appears.
It doesn't say we're like him now, or we somehow mysteriously became like him at his incarnation.
@sonship saidYou're preaching to the choir sonship. I understand that we, the church, are God's inheritance, but only because he made us so.
@josephw
A simple verse, but in no wise simplistic. They are loaded verses. 47 words. Each relative to the whole, in a narrow sense, and in the broader sense the whole letter, building a construct that conveys a piece of knowledge and understanding, with no hidden meanings.
That's my two cents.
Do you think that when the Apostle Paul wrote [b]"T ...[text shortened]... meanings. I think this is enlareging our capacity to really see the nature of His work of salvation.
Our knowledge of God and the deepening of our understanding will continue for eternity.
There's no hidden meaning in that.
But when you make assertions about something not supported by the text you quote it appears you're saying you've arrived at an understanding of something hidden that the text doesn't say.
For example: the deification of man. There's no scriptural support for that assertion. None. Nada. Nil.
If I'm wrong, then prove it. Please.
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"I think you misunderstood the reasoning's purpose.
It was to show alternative ways in which we might understand we being like Him."
I think that for you to say I "misunderstood" is a catch all for dismissing and misunderstanding what I said. I did not misunderstand anything you said.
I choose my words carefully. And I said "I think you misunderstood the reasoning's purpose."
I don't need any "alternative ways" of knowing Jesus. I have the scriptures.
I may preemptively explore other aalternative ways before they might be proposed. And I think it was helpful to me to examine what it should mean that we will be like Him. The book of Hebrews does deal with BOTH - the Son becomming like us in incarnation, and us becomming like Him as He leads many sons into glory as our Captain of salvation, our Joshua.
You cite only one verse, and make a theological mountain out of it saying things it doesn't say.
The Apostle Paul made major foundational interpretations based on less then that sometimes. Even the difference between a singular word like seed with its purtal seeds.
For example: you state, "we are like one another since His incarnation."
That is right. As I was musing over the issues and considering the book of Hebrews it occurred to me that incarnation of the Son to be a little lower than the angels and to suffer many things that He could be our merciful and faithful Highpriest, involves discussion on Him being like US and US being like Him. That is except for sin.
So I thought to include that in the evaluatation of US and Christ-likeness.
Where did that come from? There are no verses to support that assertion. I know because I checked.
If we understand each other, the discussion of we being like Jesus in His incarnation is a big part of Hebrews 2 through 5. In establishing that Jesus is a faithful, merciful yet righteous Highpriest, except for sin, we and He had to be alike.
Look at this verse from Hebrews 2, "For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people."
That is exactly the kind of verse I mean.
I think we are agreeing.
"We will be like Him" is obviously not this. If that is your complaint, I agree.
So then we must ascertain what being like Him future wise entails.
One poster said our bodies will be immortal like His.
I said, and he agreed, that that cannot be enough of what it means "we will be like Him."
So what is the process to take place that more than our body becomes "like Him?" If I reasoned this out too much for you, I'm sorry. But I so love the word of God. And to carefully explore a subject helps me to bring it into focus.
Did it do you harm to consider that incarnation made Him like us and we like Him in important ways? Did it make you love Jesus less for me to go on about that?
He was made like unto his brethren. That in no wise made his "brethren like unto him" because, which of his brethren could make "reconciliation for the sins of the people"?
For Him to be made like His brethren made His brethren like Him - logically.
That is EXCEPT for that which qualifies Him to be a merciful and faithful Highpriest.
Extending into the future we are to be His PARTNERS. That is no small thing. " . . . therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of exaltant joy above your PARTNERS." (Heb. 1:9)
You have to remember that this is spoken to God who became a man. He is called "O God" in verse 8. "But of the Son, Your throne, O God, is forever and ever . . . " .
Is it insignificant that the saved are to be PARTNERS to God who became a man ? We joy and exult and He above us all, His partners, joys and exalts more so.
In your reply to this post could you do me a favor? Write out Revelation 19:5. Tell me whose voice coming out of the throne might be saying such things as are proclaimed in that passage - Revelation 19:5.
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You're preaching to the choir sonship. I understand that we, the church, are God's inheritance, but only because he made us so.
But you see to MAKE us so, is what I am talking about.
The making us so - His inheritance in the saints, involves deification.
Our knowledge of God and the deepening of our understanding will continue for eternity.
I believe that absolutely.
Getting a deeper glimpse now in time is now always inventing "hidden meanings"
though.
There's no hidden meaning in that.
Paul prayed for or SEEING and for our ENTERING.
Paul prayed twice in Ephesians. First for our being enlightened and seeing what IS the hope. You may say that you have little need and you see enough.
I don't share that sentiment.
I think I and others need to see more clearly.
But more so that according to his second prayer, we may experience and enter.
Encouraging one another may sound like "preaching to the choir" to some.
I consider it more like "Feed my sheep."
Or I consider it more like Paul saying he did not withhold anything that was
profitable to the saints.
But when you make assertions about something not supported by the text you quote it appears you're saying you've arrived at an understanding of something hidden that the text doesn't say.
If you keep making complaint with me in this regard, I am going to ask you to show me "going to heaven" in the text as an eternal destiny. I think you are among a few here who have spoken of Heaven as some goal for God's people.
Do you know that to speak too much going to heaven is saying "Your kingdom [not come] but GO somewhere?"
"On earth as it IS in heaven" is His kingdom and His will.
I mean WHILE we're talking about standing by what it actually says in the BIble?
How much are you ruled by some traditional notions of the natural mind rather than the revelation there in the Bible?
For example: the deification of man. There's no scriptural support for that assertion. None. Nada. Nil.
If I'm wrong, then prove it. Please.
Evidence is not persuasion.
"A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still."