27 Feb 22
5 edits
@sonship saidNotice that the preface was written by none other than evangelical stalwart Billy Graham.
KingDavid403, PB2010, KellyJay,
It is commonly known among some of us in the local churches that one Paul. E. Billheimer wrote a book "Destined for the Throne" . He touches matters which I have touched here on deification.
Examine one of many copies of the classic. Notice that the preface was written by none ofther than evangelical stalwart Billy Graham.[/b ...[text shortened]...stalwart
stôl′wərt
adjective
[b]Loyal and resolute.
Strong and imposing.
https://archive.org/details/destinedforthron00paul
[quote] stalwart
stôl′wərt
adjective
Loyal and resolute.
Strong and imposing.
Billy Graham was good. However, I do not care for his son Franklin Graham who owns and runs Liberty University etc. I feel he is just in it for the money, power, and nothing else. A Trump lover also.
[1st Titus 6:10 NKJV] 10 For the love of money is a root of all [kinds of] evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
27 Feb 22
@kingdavid403 saidPersonally I would resist the temptation to allow any man, ANY MAN whatsoever, even Paul and the Apostles to determine my core doctrines. For me, this must come out of the mouth of Jesus Christ. Anything less is not acceptable, for me.
Notice that the preface was written by none other than evangelical stalwart Billy Graham.
https://archive.org/details/destinedforthron00paul
[quote] stalwart
stôl′wərt
adjective
Loyal and resolute.
Strong and imposing.
Billy Graham was good. However, I do not care for his son Franklin Graham who owns and runs Liberty University etc. I feel he is just in i ...[text shortened]... ve strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.[/b]
27 Feb 22
5 edits
@rajk999 saidWell, I agree with you somewhat. However, In the end, I don't think anyone can decide our personal "core doctrines" but us. Some do allow this to happen to themselves, of course. If I even detect a hint of control-freak over the masses or me, by a preacher or pastor, I'm outta there. Probably why I have not been to a church in well over five years now; except to fill in or teach Bible studies.
Personally I would resist the temptation to allow any man, ANY MAN whatsoever, even Paul and the Apostles to determine my core doctrines. For me, this must come out of the mouth of Jesus Christ. Anything less is not acceptable, for me.
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Billy Graham was good. However, I do not care for his son Franklin Graham who owns and runs Liberty University etc. I feel he is just in it for the money, power, and nothing else. A Trump lover also.
There is an effort to marginalize the interpretations on full NT salvation by atheists here.
They want to portray such hope as renegade beliefs, way off from mainstream Christian theology. My reference to Billheimer's book and Billy Graham's forward to it was meant to counter some exaggerated charges of heterodoxy of which other Christians know nothing.
An endorsement of anything else was not my intent.
It was just evidence that other believers have contemplated these things.
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@sonship saidIs your church’s claim that a person must believe in the trinity in order to be saved, something you would regard as a “heterodoxy”?
My reference to Billheimer's book and Billy Graham's forward to it was meant to counter some exaggerated charges of heterodoxy of which other Christians know nothing.
I guess the “other Christians” here who “know nothing” will be grateful for your presence and fortitude.
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28 Feb 22
KingDavid403,
I would like to take up again the matter of the pledge of the Holy Spirit.
I looked over the last exchanges.
Let's talk more about this pledge of the Spirit.
I have an impression that as Paul was assured because of this pledge of
being with the Lord should he die, so you also have this assurance.
If I am wrong, correct me.
And the "assurance" or not is not the only thing I would say about this
pledge. It is related to the matter of deification, I think.
Or are you waiting for me to say something about me being born again?
My story is that I am pretty sure I was born again very young. Then there was a period of wandering, unbelief, backsliddeness in which I had amnesia. I assumed that the God period of my life was long discarded and gone like a old teddy bear toy in the face of adolecent and young adult realism.
To my surprise God had mercy and came back into my life. And this time I realized the connection with God and Jesus, of which I was not very clear before in youth.
To know Jesus was to know God.
So my regeneration and being born again was something I had, and lost in subjective enjoyment, for a season, but returned to through the prayers of some people God had instructed to pray for me.
That's that in a nutshell.
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Josephw -
"No indeed it is NOT because, I do not see the terms "deification" or "divinization" inferred in the language of the text anywhere in the Bible".
apokalypsis - translated "revelation" 12 times, "be revealed" twice, "to lighten" once, "manifestation" once, "coming" once and "appearing" once.
I find no scriptural evidence to support the concept of "deification" of believers anywhere in the scriptures.
I keep telling everyone around here that the scriptures say what they mean and mean what they say.
Show me some references that SAY believers are deified. Otherwise it just sounds like a soup of conjectural assumptions to me. Sorry! 😔
Like the science behind evolution! Not sorry. 😬
Thankyou.
Let me think about a question of two about this.
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Josephw,
May I ask you, do you believe in the trinity ?
Do you believe in the trinity although the words "God is a trinity" cannot
be located anywhere in the Bible?
My point would be that sometimes we put two and two together and believe
things in the Bible which may not explicitly be stated in a creedal form.
Am I right at least about that?
Or perhaps you do not believe in the trinity?
04 Mar 22
@sonship saidThe scriptures are crystal clear about the Godhead, and there are ample references that clearly refer to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as God.
Josephw,
May I ask you, do you believe in the trinity ?
Do you believe in the trinity although the words "God is a trinity" cannot
be located anywhere in the Bible?
My point would be that sometimes we put two and two together and believe
things in the Bible which may not explicitly be stated in a creedal form ...[text shortened]...
Am I right at least about that?
Or perhaps you do not believe in the trinity?
I would question the authenticity of anyone's salvation that denies that truth.
But, I find no references as direct and pointed for the idea of deification as I do for the nature and attributes of the Godhead anywhere in the scriptures of the Old or New Testament.
I need at least two witnesses! I've been through every verse of the New Testament many many times. If you quote a verse and try to wrest an interpretation or meaning out of it not consistent with the context from which it is taken I will know.
It's as simple as that. And if you do I will argue and debate with you about to the end of time. 😀🙏
Give it your best shot. Make the first one count brother.
05 Mar 22
@josephw saidChristians playing God. Your church has failed to preach the truth.
I would question the authenticity of anyone's salvation that denies that truth.
The truth is that Jesus saves. You fortunately have no say in anyone's salvation and there is nothing in the teachings of Jesus Christ that says people need to believe in any Trinity or a Godhead or any such doctrine. Jesus said that God is the Father and He is the Son of God.
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The scriptures are crystal clear about the Godhead, and there are ample references that clearly refer to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as God.
I would question the authenticity of anyone's salvation that denies that truth.
But the point that I am making is that we believe the Trinity yet there is no passages explicitly saying "God is a trinity".
I would maintain though no passages explicitly uses the word deification, its evidence is also there. So insistence on finding the explicitly creedal statement using th word deification is not enough to deny it.
But, I find no references as direct and pointed for the idea of deification as I do for the nature and attributes of the Godhead anywhere in the scriptures of the Old or New Testament.
Holiness is an attribute of God.
In fact holiness has its source in God of whom its says "You ALONE are holy"
(Rev. 16:4)
We are told to PERFECT holiness in coordination with Christ's savlation.
"Therefore since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Cor. 7:1)
The saints are not only in a holy position objectrively. They are instructed to be about perfecting holiness for themselves - of course with cooperation with the Holy Spirit.
This is an attribute of God dispensed into man.
I need at least two witnesses! I've been through every verse of the New Testament many many times. If you quote a verse and try to wrest an interpretation or meaning out of it not consistent with the context from which it is taken I will know.
It's as simple as that. And if you do I will argue and debate with you about to the end of time. 😀🙏
I only feel to give a reason for the hope that is within me.
You may choose not to speak of deification.
I can only ask you a few questions to demonstrate why what you do not like to
say, I have no problem in saying.
Isn't it the case in 2 Cor. 7:1 that believers are exhorted to allow God to impart to them His attriubte of holiness ?
05 Mar 22
1 edit
@sonship saidNonsense again . Paul is exhorting Christian Saints to cleanse themselves. Paul says nothing there about allowing God to impart to them His attributes of holiness at all. You are fabricating doctrines and twisting the bible.
Isn't it the case in 2 Cor. 7:1 that believers are exhorted to allow God to impart to them His attriubte of holiness ?
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. (2 Corinthians 7:1 KJV)
Cleanse yourself. James says it as well - Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. (James 4:8 KJV)
Are all your doctrines so full of holes and contrary to the bible?
06 Mar 22
@rajk999 saidI have little doubt you've been booted out the door of every church you ever tried to infiltrate.
Christians playing God. Your church has failed to preach the truth.
But I can see you now in a dark and dingy basement huddled together with the two or three other like minded trolls seething with resentment and loathing against the humanity you hate and despise, with a particular repugnance for God's chosen. 😱
06 Mar 22
@josephw saidThe Pharisees thought they were Gods chosen too... just like you
I have little doubt you've been booted out the door of every church you ever tried to infiltrate.
But I can see you now in a dark and dingy basement huddled together with the two or three other like minded trolls seething with resentment and loathing against the humanity you hate and despise, with a particular repugnance for God's chosen. 😱