@ghost-of-a-duke saidChanging the wording of the bible is the work of Satan. The only reason for doing that is to alter the meaning and to elevate oneself above what God intended.
Sonship has invented the word 'God-ized,' a process where humans become partakers in God's divinity. His mentor, Witness Lee, explained it as a four in one deity.
Where normal Christians see Christians 'sharing in God's nature' in regards to emulating His divine example, Sonship takes this to mean man literally becomes deified.
26 Feb 22
@sonship saidMore Satanical nonsense. Christians are born of water ie baptized into Christ and are given the Holy Spirit as a guide as to how they should live. This process is NOT BORN OF THE SPIRIT. Jesus explained
@KingDavid403Are you "Born Again" ? If so, please explain the changes in you that took place when this happened. I will be glad to share my experience with you after.
Again, I do not agree with, or believe, most of what you are posting here.
Before we get into personal testimonies, I would like to know if the word of the Lord Jesus Himself means a bir ...[text shortened]... that born life?
Thanks if you can address those two questions before I get into my experience.
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:5-6 KJV)
In the end when Jesus returns THEN Christians are regenerated and given a new body fashioned like Christ
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matthew 19:28 KJV)
26 Feb 22
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@rajk999 saidIs Baptism required for humans, for salvation and eternal life with Jesus?
More Satanical nonsense. Christians are born of water ie baptized into Christ and are given the Holy Spirit as a guide as to how they should live. This process is NOT BORN OF THE SPIRIT. Jesus explained
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the fles ...[text shortened]... ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matthew 19:28 KJV)
(Thief on the cross next to Jesus) etc?
Or, when Jesus was Baptized, did that Baptism of Jesus, spiritually baptize us into Jesus when we ask Him to be our Lord. I suggest reading again where Jesus was Baptized in the Bible right before His ministry. See what happened right after.
Please don't get me wrong here, I think Baptism is important. However, I do not feel it is a requirement; and, that's backed up by Scriptures.
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@sonship saidWe-ized is worse than God-ized, although both are missing from scripture.Sonship has invented the word 'God-ized,' a process where humans become partakers in God's divinity. His mentor, Witness Lee, explained it as a four in one deity.
To be accurate, KingDavod403, I learned the term "God-ized" from someone else.
I also learned the term, "Son-ized" from that same person the late Brother Witness Lee.
Whether Lee wa ...[text shortened]... New Jerusalem.
You may blame me for (as far as I know) being the first to use that term.
Why isn't the Bible enough for you?
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26 Feb 22
@sonship
The problem here sonship is that you follow a teacher (Witness Lee) who claimed to speak 'higher truths' (as most cult leaders do) and who said Christians were now in an organization of Satan. Are these higher truths higher than scripture itself? By the way you plunder scripture to squeeze in the words of Witness Lee, you apparently seem to think so. We have seen you take a word like 'godliness' and equate it with God-ized, when clearly godliness (when referred to man) relates to behaving in a godly manner, while the made up 'God-ized' refers to man becoming God. Two entirely different things. Similarly, partaking in God's nature doesn't equate with man's deification, no matter how much your human arrogance wishes it did.
26 Feb 22
@kingdavid403 saidI have no answer to that. What I know is that there are two groups of people who will enter the Kingdom of God. First the Christians - these are born again, baptized Saints who are righteous, and rule with Christ for the 1000 yrs on the earth. Next are all the other righteous people from Adam to the end of the world, after the final judgment.
Is Baptism required for humans, for salvation and eternal life with Jesus?
(Thief on the cross next to Jesus) etc?
Or, when Jesus was Baptized, did that Baptism of Jesus, spiritually baptize us into Jesus when we ask Him to be our Lord. I suggest reading again where Jesus was Baptized in the Bible right before His ministry. See what happened right after.
Please do ...[text shortened]... tism is important. However, I do not feel it is a requirement; and, that's backed up by Scriptures.
Baptism is for Christian Saints in Christ as far as I can tell
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@KingDavid403
To the new birth you reply -
Not a new physical life, no; a new spiritual life, yes.
Is there a component of this new birth which even effects the body also eventually?
IE.
"For also we in this tabernacle [physical body] groan, being burdened, in that we do not desire to be unclothed, but clothed upon, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life." ( 2 Cor. 5:4)
Here we have the divine life of Christ and God not only with a spiritual effect inwardly. We have the swallowing up in that same divine life outwardly - "clothed upon" .
Can you see in this an expansion and spreading of the life of God to consummate in the mortal body being "swallowed up by life" ?
The climax of this life impartation, if normal, is not that we be "unclothed" and left only with a human spirit and soul to appear in a happy place. Rather the normal course of things is that believers not be found "naked" but rather clothed upon and swallowed up by divine life of God.
"For we know that if our earthly tabernacle dwelling is taken down, [physical death] we have a building from God, adwelling place not madfe with hands, eternal, in the heavens. (2 Cor. 5:1)
Here we see the contrast between a temporary tabernacle which can be put up and taken dowd with an permentant building of an eternal nature - AS the eternal life which the re-born receive inwardly.
Going on - "For also in this we groan, longing to be clothed upon with our dwelling place from heaven, If indeed, being clothed, we will not be found naked.
For also, we who are in this [temporary] tabernacle groan, being burdened, in that we do not desire to be unclothed upon, THAT WHAT IS MORTAL MAY BE SWALLOWED UP BY LIFE."
The consummation of the event of being born again with God's life is to be transformed by God's life and eventually have the body swallowed up in this very life.
As a matter of fact the Holy Spirit given deep witnin the Christian, is the garuantee or "pledge" that God WILL INDEED bring this consummation to a conclusion at some time.
"Now He who has wrought us for this very thing [THIS . . . VERY THING as TRANSFIGURATION in divine life] is God, who has given to us the Spirit as a pledge." (vs. 4,5)
This is the total saturation, permeation, swallowing up, and conformation to the glorified Christ as the normal process ordained by God.
Mind you, the Holy Spirit as a pledge is the "Spirit OF life" (Romans 8:2). "For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus . . . ". And Spirit is the life giving Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45) which is also to "give life to your mortal bodies through the Spirit who indwells you." ( Rom. 8:11)
The climax of the life of God being imparted into our innermost being is its transformation of the soul and its swallowing up of the body in transfiguration - "swallowed up in life".
It is also to be swallowed up in and by the Lord of life for "the Lord is the Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:17)
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Cont. with KingDavid403.
My other question again:
And do you understand that any BIRTH would normally be followed by the GROWTH of that born life?
Your reply:
Oh yes. With falls off our wagons along the way, and then some.
Apart from abnormality or falling off the wagon, God's desire is to sanctify men "WHOLLY" in all three parts of their being - "spirit and soul and body"
"And may the God of peace Himself sanctify you WHOLLY; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thess. 5:23)
As for abnormal mishap of "falling off the wagon" our confidence is that God will do it.
"Faithful is He who calls you, who also will do it." (v.24)
The splendour of this we may not see at this time. But in faithfulness we will see the glory and others will as well in the age in which Christ in man is MARVELED AT.
"When He comes to be glorified in His saints and to be marveled at in all those who have believed (because our testimony to you was believed) in that day." (2 Thess. 1:10)
Now remember Jesus Christ, raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.
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We-ized is worse than God-ized, although both are missing from scripture.
Why isn't the Bible enough for you?
No Ghost.
The problem of the universe is basically "WE WANT TO SEE GOD ! WHERE IS GOD?"
The eternal plan of God is that God would be SEEN in that God would be (if you will) WE-IZED. God would mass produce the mingling of humanity and divinity of the Firstborn Son of God.
God the uncreated and invisible Divine Person - the divine life manifested Himself to some Old Testament people. He appeared on Mt. Sinai for some forty days. It did not take long for the Israelites to become bored and make for themselves an IDOL.
God "appeared". And this eventually God became a man.
Why?
Certainly to live a sinless and perfect life and to die a redemptive death.
But that is not all. It was a STEP further in the process of God dispensing Himself into the people Christ redeemed that He could be "We-ized" in eternity.
The Apostle John was veru bold to say that all the appearances of God to man are now superceded. They do not count compared to the incarnation of the Word as flesh to tabernacle among us.
"No one has ever seen God; the only begotten Som, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him." (John 1:18)
God became man so that man might become God in life and nature and expression but NOT In the Godhead.
So it is the good pleasure of God according to His eternal purpose that He be "We-ized" and we be "Son-nized" - that man be "God-ized".
And the Bible is enough. But sometimes we must say something dramatic to bring attention TO what is there in the Bible. If I influence a few people to go READ for themselves the book of Hebrews with new eyes and an opened heart, it is a win / win for me.
Now stop your blaspheming of denying God's existence.
Why is not the Bible enough for you when it says "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." ?
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26 Feb 22
@sonship saidThis is unadulterated gobbledegook with absolutely no basis in scripture.
The eternal plan of God is that God would be SEEN in that God would be (if you will) WE-IZED. God would mass produce the mingling of humanity and divinity of the Firstborn Son of God.
Are you sure you are reading the Bible?!
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26 Feb 22
Readers, When the book of Hebrews discribes Jesus as the Forerunner - into what or what matter is He running before ?
And please do not tell me what He is NOT doing. Tell me what He IS doing.
Into what matter is Jesus a Forerunner that others may FOLLOW Him there?
" . . . we have as an anchor of the soul, both secure andfirm and which enteres within the veil, where the Forerunner Jesus, jas entered for us, . . . " (See Heb. 6:20)
Now since one poster may scold me for not quoting the entire verse, I will write it again including the part about the Forerunner being a High Priest. Jesus has many statuses.
"Where the Forerunner, Jesus, has entered for us, having become forever a High Preist according to the order of Melchizedek."
26 Feb 22
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@rajk999 saidBaptism is for Christian Saints in Christ as far as I can tell
I have no answer to that. What I know is that there are two groups of people who will enter the Kingdom of God. First the Christians - these are born again, baptized Saints who are righteous, and rule with Christ for the 1000 yrs on the earth. Next are all the other righteous people from Adam to the end of the world, after the final judgment.
Baptism is for Christian Saints in Christ as far as I can tell
I mostly agree; however, I do not feel or think it is a requirement for Salvation; as Scripture clearly shows us; in extenuating circumstances anyway.
I personally look at Baptism as a humble public acknowledgement or confession of Christ before man. You know the scripture when Jesus said, "if we acknowledge Him before men, He will also acknowledge us (Paraphrased).
26 Feb 22
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@sonship saidI'm not a "once saved always saved" believer. Judas is a good example of my beliefs on that subject.
@KingDavid403
To the new birth you reply -
Not a new physical life, no; a new spiritual life, yes.
Is there a component of this new birth which even effects the body also eventually?
IE.
"For also we in this tabernacle [physical body] groan, being burdened, in that we do not desire to be unclothed, but clothed upon, tha ...[text shortened]... lso to be swallowed up in and by the Lord of life for [b]"the Lord is the Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:17)
Yes, we will have a new body as Scriptures tells us. However, for us, that is not until Jesus comes back for us. Look in the Bible and read what happened in Jerusalem, the moment Jesus died and gave up His Spirit. Many graves and tombs were opened and all the dead came out alive raised from the dead. Most miss this event in the Bible, as I did for some time.
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26 Feb 22
@KingDavid403
I understand much better where you are coming from now.
In your case it is innappropriate to talk overmuch about deification.
With you I would more like to talk about redemption and regeneration.
I want to thank you for the transparency.
26 Feb 22
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@sonship saidWell, at least I know I'm a special case. 😀 That's what my wife tells me also. Anyhoot, nothing is inappropriate to talk about with me; including deification. I need no talk about redemption and regeneration. If you need to talk about these things, please feel free to do so, if you have any questions.
@KingDavid403
I understand much better where you are coming from now.
In your case it is innappropriate to talk overmuch about deification.
With you I would more like to talk about redemption and regeneration.
I want to thank you for the transparency.