@kellyjay saidAccording to your religious faith do you really think that saying stuff like the stuff you have typed above is going to make people believe in the Christian God?
Hell is not going to be entertainment, it is a place of punishment, eternal punishment. Being saved is being saved from the wrath to come, because it is coming, and that day gets closer all the time. The price has been paid for us, but many don't care, not yet anyway.
@kellyjay saidRevelation 3 English Standard Version (ESV)
Revelation 3 English Standard Version (ESV)
“And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: ‘The words of the holy one, the true one, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, who shuts and no one opens.
“‘I know your works. Behold, I have set before you an open door, which no one is able to shut. I know that you have but little power, and yet yo ...[text shortened]... n, and He is also acting with a purpose towards an end, one where we are being told to over come in.
“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.
“‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”
"I stand at the door and knock..." this is preached to the church! To be rich in God isn't being rich in the world; it is a closeness to God, our first love! Gold tried in the fire are those who, through this life, have gone through testing and remained faithful! To be on fire for God or cold towards God is preferred over being lukewarm, those that are apathetic towards has God wanting to spit you out of his mouth.
@fmf saidWhat makes you think that everything a Christian says has to be looked at through the lens of whether it "makes" people believe in the Christian God? You've asked this question far too many times. The answer should always be "No."
According to your religious faith do you really think that saying stuff like the stuff you have typed above is going to make people believe in the Christian God?
@suzianne saidKellyJay is here promoting his faith. His torturer god ideology seems to be absolutely front and centre in his efforts to promote his religious beliefs, especially when he is either talking to non-believers or talking about the supposed punishment for non-belief. Therefore, with it being a debate and discussion forum, I think my question is reasonable.
What makes you think that everything a Christian says has to be looked at through the lens of whether it "makes" people believe in the Christian God? You've asked this question far too many times. The answer should always be "No."
@kellyjay saidRevelation 4 English Standard Version (ESV)
Revelation 3 English Standard Version (ESV)
“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.
“‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. For you ...[text shortened]... over being lukewarm, those that are apathetic towards has God wanting to spit you out of his mouth.
After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” At once I was in the Spirit, and behold, a throne stood in heaven, with one seated on the throne. And he who sat there had the appearance of jasper and carnelian, and around the throne was a rainbow that had the appearance of an emerald.
This book has been and continues to take on a level of a magnitude not many other books of scripture carry. A door standing open in heaven with a voice from heaven speaking to the writer of the book of Revelation. For those that think little of this book, who profess to be believers in scripture and God’s Word. We should see Revelation was given or dictated to John by the One who made sure John saw and heard what was shown him so he could write it down.
@kellyjay saidIn the book of Revelation, things are revealed that cannot be known except through revelation from God. Only when we start thinking about what it means for God to be totally and completely sovereign do these things real meanings stand out.
Revelation 4 English Standard Version (ESV)
After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” At once I was in the Spirit, and behold, a throne stood in heaven, with one seated on the throne. And he who sat there had ...[text shortened]... ed to John by the One who made sure John saw and heard what was shown him so he could write it down.
“Worthy are you, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they existed and were created.”
Revelation 4 English Standard Version (ESV)
Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and seated on the thrones were twenty-four elders, clothed in white garments, with golden crowns on their heads. From the throne came flashes of lightning, and rumblings and peals of thunder, and before the throne were burning seven torches of fire, which are the seven spirits of God, and before the throne there was as it were a sea of glass, like crystal.
And around the throne, on each side of the throne, are four living creatures, full of eyes in front and behind: the first living creature like a lion, the second living creature like an ox, the third living creature with the face of a man, and the fourth living creature like an eagle in flight. And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all around and within, and day and night they never cease to say,
“Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty,
who was and is and is to come!”
And whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to him who is seated on the throne, who lives forever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before him who is seated on the throne and worship him who lives forever and ever. They cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
“Worthy are you, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they existed and were created.”
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Chapter four is a vision of the Creator. And He is a God of purpose. For His will all things are and were created.
The twenty four thrones with twenty four elders represent the oldest beings in the universe. They are not the elders of Israel nor the elders of the church. They are the elders of the whole creation of God, the first of the angelic beings whom God created.
The sea of glass before the throne of the Creator is the lake of fire for God to judged all that is in opposition against His eternal will. All opposing wills that follow Satan will be swept away in a stream of fire proceeding from before the throne of God. This sea of glass is the same as the sea of glass mingled with fire in chapter 15.
"And I saw as it were a glassy sea mingled with fire and those who come away victorious from the beast [antichrist] and from his image and from the number of his name standing on the glassy sea, having harps of God." ( 15:2)
This is the same sea of judgment before God's throne in chapter 4.
"And before the throne there was as it were a glassy sea like crystal ..." (4:6a)
This hails back to the book of Daniel where the Ancient of Days sits on a throne of fire and a stream of judging fire issues forth before His throne to deal with all the opposition party headed by the evil rebellious angels.
"I watched until thrones were set, And the Ancient of Days sat down, His clothing was like white snow, And the hair of is head was like pure wool;
His throne was flames of fire; Its wheels, burning fire.
A stream of fire issued forth and came out from before Him.
Thousands of thousands ministered to Him,
And ten thousands of ten thousands stood before Him.
The court of judgment sat, And the books were opened." (Dan. 7:9,10)
@sonship saidI think that people don't realize that God is sovereign and grasp the significance of that truth. If everything, in reality, were created for a reason, than revolting from that is denying the very reason we are here, and in doing that, we lose the real meaning of life. I agree with you, God has a purpose, and it is going to be done the way He wants it to be. It is no different than when we create or run something, we setup everything the way we want it to be. The differences are between us and God we have to work within His universe under the laws He set in place and when our desires cannot overcome His laws we adjust our will to the way things are. Unlike us, He sets all the laws and rules in place so that all things are go better for anyone who moves with God instead of against Him.
Chapter four is a vision of the Creator. And He is a God of purpose. For His will all things are and were created.
The twenty four thrones with twenty four elders represent the oldest beings in the universe. They are not the elders of Israel nor the elders of the church. They are the elders of the whole creation of God, the first of the angelic beings whom God created.
...[text shortened]... usands stood before Him.
The court of judgment sat, And the books were opened." (Dan. 7:9,10)[/b]
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@KellyJay
Yes, Ephesians also tells us of the eternal purpose for which God created the universe - to have sons. At least the implication is very strong that before He created the foundation of the world (meaning the universe) it was already in His heart to have sons who share His life and nature, yet not His Godhead or position.
"Even as He chose us in Him BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD to be holy and withut blemish before Him love, Predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will." (Eph. 1:4,5)
So all things were created by Him because of His will. (Rev. 4:11).
Now in a peculiar way God gave the creatures who didn't not want His will to have the time to try out there own plan. How many eons this took place with the angels and pre-Adam creatures, I do not know.
But we see that with the fall of man, God seemed to give man the leeway to engage his innate powers of creatureness, including his technology, to go it without God. You know in the tower of Babel, God said that unified the people would be able to accomplish whatever they wanted.
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I use to wonder WHY God stopped the building of that tower of Babel is it stood for man's unity and ingenuity to accomplish anything.
"And the whole earth had one language and the same speech. And as they journeyed east, ..." (Gen. 11:11) [/quote]
Presently, my opinion is that they journeyed toward the rising of the sun. Perhaps they thought that that was the source of universal light - toward the plae where the sun comes up.
Anyway ...
" ...they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there. "
You know the story of them baking bricks build a tower reaching up to heaven. The Triune God came down, as it says, and caused them to be scattered and confused so that they would not be able to accomplish this great feat. I asked WHY. It seemed a noble and unified effort of mankind.
"And they said, Come, let us build ourselves a city and a tower whose top is in the heavens; and let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be scattered over the surface of the whole earth.
And Jehovah came down to see the city and the tower which they children of men had built. And Jehovah said, Behold, they are one people, and they all have one language, and this is only the beginning of what they will do; and now nothing which they propose to do will be kept from them.
Come, let Us go down and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech." (Gen 11:4-7)
Then I realized eventually what unified humans would eventually come up with without God would only be evil, oppressive, devoted to Satan more than God. So God caused the unified plan to be interrupted with confusion.
My point here is that God gives angels and man some ample space of time to see for themselves the eventual folly of going it alone without the Creator and His overall purpose.
@sonship saidI don't think Satan has to have people devoted to him for him to be happy with them, as long as they are not walking in truth, in love, in forgiveness, instead living in strife, fear, anger, hate, lonely, anything but right with God the devil doesn't really care. He isn't going to get anything out of any of us that he can keep, he and all of those like him are going to lose it all and themselves in the end.
I use to wonder WHY God stopped the building of that tower of Babel is it stood for man's unity and ingenuity to accomplish anything.
"And the whole earth had one language and the same speech. And as they journeyed east, ..." (Gen. 11:11) [/quote]
Presently, my opinion is that they journeyed toward the rising of the sun. Perhaps they thought that that was the ...[text shortened]... see for themselves the eventual folly of going it alone without the Creator and His overall purpose.
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@KellyJay
God's enemy the devil "has the might of death" (Heb. 2:14)
Death here is separation from God. God's enemy want to keep man "alienated from the life of God" (Eph. 4:18). That is not just kept away from God or knowing about God. That is estranged from the very "life of God". Because God's eternal purpose is to dispense Himself into man as life.
God created a "God liver" - a creature that His own life could be dispensed into for a union with God. The archangel never had this. He hates that it is available to this mere little puny creature made from the dust of the ground.
"God liver" is my own term. I mean not just one who knows God, but one who LIVES God.
In the next post I will relate this more to chapters 4 and 5.