Spirituality
12 Oct 19
31 Oct 19
@rjhinds saidHe is more into denial of, than believing in scripture. Do you see much in the way of defense of his beliefs, we do see instead him attacking other’s beliefs, and those that hold them?
You seem to be admitting that you are one of those left-wing lunatic unbelievers.
31 Oct 19
@rjhinds saidLook what the cat's dragged in!
You seem to be admitting that you are one of those left-wing lunatic unbelievers.
01 Nov 19
@kellyjay saidRevelation 3 English Standard Version (ESV)
Revelation 2 English Standard Version (ESV)
“And to the angel of the church in Sardis write: ‘The words of him who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars.
“‘I know your works. You have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God. Reme ...[text shortened]... e need to repent and ask Jesus to be Lord of our lives, or remain apart from God in die in our sins.
“And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: ‘The words of the holy one, the true one, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, who shuts and no one opens.
“‘I know your works. Behold, I have set before you an open door, which no one is able to shut. I know that you have but little power, and yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet, and they will learn that I have loved you. Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth. I am coming soon. Hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown. The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’
There are a few things that appear to be a theme in Revelation, the first that Jesus is coming back, and it will not be like the first time. It is clear that God is Sovereign, and He is also acting with a purpose towards an end, one where we are being told to over come in.
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01 Nov 19
1 edit
I would be honored to discuss this topic. Even if we part agreeing to disagree at the end.
Fellowship amongst believers is usually mutually honoring. It should be.
Well, there are various promises to those who overcome in the seven letters. If we adapt a view that the warnings extend to eternity then of course we have to interpret Christ reneging on eternal redemption.
If we interpret that the enjoyment of the prize of co-reigning with Him and/or being positively disciplined in the millennial period of one thousand years, then the both the reward and the punishments are dispensational (I mean temporary).
In the teaching of the need for brothers to forgive one another the discipline to the unforgiving servant is bounded by the word "UNTIL", meaning that the time of punishment will be terminated when the lesson is learned.
We see a punishment to a servant of the Lord in Matthew 18:34.
And his lord was angry and delivered him to the tormentors until he should pay all that was owed to him.
So shall My heavenly Father do to you if you do not forgive each one his brother from your heart."
What the Lord's Father will do to some will be UNTIL ... a terminating time. He is not eternally lost.
In the same way, the wide scope of possible punishments Christ may administer to believers during the millennial period includes hurt by the second death UNTIL some endpoint and having name blotted out of the book of life UNTIL some endpoint.
01 Nov 19
@sonship saidBe specific with scripture, because when I read it the entering into the joy of the Lord it is all God's doing, here we have the seal of our salvation with the promised Holy Spirit in this life, until its all said and done, and we overcome and acquire possession of it, to God's glory not our own. It is to God's glory not our own because we were dead in our sins, dead people cannot justify themselves; if it were not for Christ's blood, we would remain in our sins.
@KellyJay
I would be honored to discuss this topic. Even if we part agreeing to disagree at the end.
Fellowship amongst believers is usually mutually honoring. It should be.
Well, there are various promises to those who overcome in the seven letters. If we adapt a view that the warnings extend to eternity then of course we have to interpret Chris ...[text shortened]... econd death UNTIL some endpoint and having name blotted out of the book of life UNTIL some endpoint.
Ephesians 1
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
As far as the duration of torment, when we read day and night forever and ever that does not lead itself to until I'm happy you were punished enough. That sounds more like someone who refuses to forgive someone until the one who did wrong has suffered enough, that is not Biblical forgiveness! That is NOT what is happening in Hell, and the suffering enough was all done by Jesus Christ, He paid our debts of sin in full, those going to Hell go there because they died in their sins outside of God's salvation, they rejected it. Hell isn't a place of penance to earn new salvation or wiping off of existence; this is the wrath of God poured out against evil and wickedness.
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01 Nov 19
8 edits
Be specific with scripture, because when I read it the entering into the joy of the Lord it is all God's doing, ...
Okay, just going up to this part, and being specific. You are alluding to this specific passage - the parable about faithfulness in Matt. 25:14-30
This involves three slaves of the man who went away but delivered to these
his own slaves, varying talents - (five, two, and one respectively).
For the kingdom of the heavens is just like a man about to go abroad. who called his own slaves and delivered to them his possessions. (v.14)
They are "HIS OWN slaves." It is from this parable you refer to the words - "Enter into the joy of your master" (vs. 21, 23)
Slave #1 - "You were faithful over a few things; I will set you over many things. Enter into the joy of your master." (v.21)
Slave #2 - "You were faithful over a few things; and I will set you over many things, Enter into the joy of your master. (v.23)
Slave #3 - And cast the useless slave into the outer darkness. In that place there will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth."
Some observations on your SPECIFIC verse:
1.) All three slaves were the man's OWN slaves. It does not say TWO were his own and the third was not or an imposter.
2.) All three slaves received talents -
" ... called his own slaves and delivered to them his possessions. To one he gave five talents, and to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability. And he went abroad (v.15)
3.) If eternal salvation is by WORKS and doing BUSINESS for God then -
Slave#1 - WORKED and earned eternal life and was recompensed with entering into the joy of his master.
Slave#2 - WORKED and earned eternal life and was recompensed with entering into the joy of his master.
Slave# 3 Did not WORK and therefore did not earn the WAGES of eternal life.
This understanding would negate what you strongly indicated -
" ... to God's glory not our own. It is to God's glory not our own because we were dead in our sins, dead people cannot justify themselves; if it were not for Christ's blood, we would remain in our sins."
So for eternal redemption we cannot hold that Slave #1 and Slave #2 justified each himself but Slave #3 failed to justify himself.
The recompense and discipline BOTH must pertain to something OTHER then eternal life. Otherwise the glory goes to the WORKER.
But we cannot deny that there is a recompense and depriving of recompense in the teaching. So it must refer to something OTHER than eternal life. It is related to the kingdom reward.
4.) It is obviously about the time following the second coming of Christ I think.
"For the kingdom of the heavens is just like a man about to go abroad, who called his own slaves ..."
Going abroad should relate to the time Jesus Christ is "abroad" from the earth -physically and in heaven during the church age.
"Now after a long time the master of those slaves came and settled accounts with them." (v.19)
Coming back from being abroad, this should be the time of Christ's coming again. And He settles accounts with his servants at the commencement of the age of the one thousand year millennial kingdom. The rewarded enter into that joy of their master. The disciplined one is assigned to "the outer darkness"(v.30)
While I concede "weeping and gnashing of teeth" is a phrase that applies to the furnace of fire AND the outer darkness, we need not be quick to assume that the furnace of fire and the outer darkness are synonymous.
We may assume that regret is experienced in either one and both.
For length sake I stop here.
I submit that the recompense of reward in Matthew 25:14-30 from which you derive specifically the phrase "Enter into the joy of your master" is not related to the eternal age of the new heaven and new earth AFTER the millennial kingdom. But it refers to that limited time, albeit a thousand years. The recompense is not related to eternal salvation but faithfulness in SERVICE to those for whom eternal redemption has been solved already in the affirmative.
01 Nov 19
@sonship saidOh I believe regret will be paramount for those that find themselves suffering throughout eternity, that isn’t going to change their fate. Hell is not a place for teaching us to be better it is one for the wrath of God to be displayed.
@KellyJay
Be specific with scripture, because when I read it the entering into the joy of the Lord it is all God's doing, ...
Okay, just going up to this part, and being specific. You are alluding to this specific passage - the parable about faithfulness in Matt. 25:14-30
This involves three slaves of the man who went away but delivered ...[text shortened]... hfulness in SERVICE to those for whom eternal redemption has been solved already in the affirmative.
With respect to work it is to be due to love not obligation. I believe John Piper’s example captures it well. We don’t come to our wives on our anniversary with flowers and say I brought you these out of duty, we tell her how much she is loved as we hand them to her.
Loving people puts their needs above our wants and sometimes our needs. You look at what Jesus said to the sheep, after they asked Him when they did the things He was praising them for. When you did these to the least of these you did it unto me. They were not keeping track of good works done, they were simply loving others in Christ.
We all will stand in front of Jesus, for some our sins will have all have been taken care of by Christ, the rest will be standing in their sins. So rewards take place in this life all others in the next.
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01 Nov 19
@KellyJay
So in the teaching of Matthew 18:14-30 from which we are discussing "Enter into the joy of your master" -
Which position do you think applies:
1.) The third slave represents a Christian who has his eternal salvation revoked.
2.) The third slave was a false Christian.
01 Nov 19
@sonship saidIt is the same with the guy who the king forgave his debt, he was forgiven when he walked away, he ruined that by not forgiving others. You have to have something before you can lose it. This also does not mean there are those who never knew the Lord who claimed to.
@KellyJay
So in the teaching of Matthew 18:14-30 from which we are discussing "Enter into the joy of your master" -
Which position do you think applies:
1.) The third slave represents a Christian who has his eternal salvation revoked.
2.) The third slave was a false Christian.
Jesus spoke to this with the seeds and sower, some plants did grow but died due to the cares and pleasures of this life. It’s complex but Jesus is either in our lives or not. If He isn’t Lord of our lives then something will be able to cause us to turn from Him, a care, pleasure, an idol of some nature.
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01 Nov 19
@KellyJay
Thankyou. Perhaps latter we can take this up in fellowship again.
The Lord be with your spirit.
02 Nov 19
@kellyjay saidWhat’s the point of the wrath being “displayed”?
Hell is not a place for teaching us to be better it is one for the wrath of God to be displayed.
02 Nov 19
@divegeester saidApparently its going to be like entertainment for the mouth worshipers. They get to see the good people of the world people suffer for eternity.
What’s the point of the wrath being “displayed”?
@kellyjay saidWhy isn't this supposed wrath of God "displayed" to non-believers while they are still alive in order that they might avoid "suffering throughout eternity" and, instead, obey Jesus' commandments as believers during their lives?
Hell is not a place for teaching us to be better it is one for the wrath of God to be displayed.
02 Nov 19
@rajk999 saidYou should read some of the things said in scripture and not worry about anyone else.
Apparently its going to be like entertainment for the mouth worshipers. They get to see the good people of the world people suffer for eternity.
Mark 10:18
And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.
Matthew 3:6-8 English Standard Version (ESV)
and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bear fruit in keeping with repentance.
Romans 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Colossians 3:5-7 English Standard Version (ESV)
Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of these the wrath of God is coming. In these you too once walked, when you were living in them.
Romans 9:21-23 English Standard Version (ESV)
Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—
Hell is not going to be entertainment, it is a place of punishment, eternal punishment. Being saved is being saved from the wrath to come, because it is coming, and that day gets closer all the time. The price has been paid for us, but many don't care, not yet anyway.