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The god who burns people alive for eternity

The god who burns people alive for eternity

Spirituality

KellyJay
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@philokalia said
OK, FMF, it is perhaps true that I do not provide the best arguments here. It is certainly true that the best arguments for God and Christianity and the Gospels are all off of this website. I bet you could even do a splendid job of finding the names of the top writers and theologians that support the Christian worldview yourself, and probably already have.

My po ...[text shortened]... Gospels. This is completely your choice as an adult, and it is completely done independently, right?
Don't say he was close to God, if He was He couldn't deny Him.

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@philokalia said
I bet you could even do a splendid job of finding the names of the top writers and theologians that support the Christian worldview yourself, and probably already have.
You can 'appeal to authority' till you are blue in the face. Your religious beliefs have equipped you only with ludicrous and narcissistic threats about the neverending torture that apparently awaits me for not believing the same stuff as you.

If your religious beliefs had equipped you with morally coherent arguments [...your "It is because it is" approach doesn't wash] then you would surely lay them out. But you don't.

So much for the effect that exposing yourself to "top writers" and "top theologians" has had on you.

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@kellyjay said
Don't say he was close to God, if He was He couldn't deny Him.
Don't you feel close to God? Don't you believe your faith is real and true? If we apply your 'argument' - not just to me - but to you, too, then you'll have to admit that neither or I can know, at this point in time, for sure, if your belief in God is real or whether your claim to be close to God is true.

Philokalia

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@fmf said
You are still actually talking about me "choosing" to believe what you believe or else face demented violence? This is your "appeal to reason"?

Whatever I may have felt or believed I was in the past, I wasn't "close to God". And I don't have any reason to believe you are, either.

If the "Gospels" push your meaning-of-life buttons, good for you.

But the stuff about me ...[text shortened]... ,999 denominations of your religion] while I was alive cannot be described as "an appeal to reason".
Oh, OK, I was actually just talking about a single thing above:

You have free will and are responsible for your choices, and that consciously rejecting the Gospel is such a choice.

I stated earlier, much earlier, that I do not know who goes to hell. I know one certain path to Heaven, but I do not know who goes to hell, nor do I know how wide the path to heaven is. I resent any claims that which would say That I believe that every single person outside of the Orthodox church goes to hell.

Philokalia

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@fmf said
You can 'appeal to authority' till you are blue in the face. Your religious beliefs have equipped you only with ludicrous and narcissistic threats about the neverending torture that apparently awaits me for not believing the same stuff as you.

If your religious beliefs had equipped you with morally coherent arguments [...your "It is because it is" approach doesn't wash] then ...[text shortened]... So much for the effect that exposing yourself to "top writers" and "top theologians" has had on you.
If you choose to reject the Gospels, and to not repent for your sins, the Gospels straight from the word of Christ Himself state that those who reject Him will go to hell.

That is all I am saying.

I guess this kind of is an appeal to authority because we ultimately are talking about a revealed truth.

The debate that we would have to have is either more fundamental (the existence of God, Christ as God) or it's about theodicy.

Which of these two debates would you like to have? Or is it enough to just stop at this point?

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@philokalia said
I resent any claims that which would say That I believe that every single person outside of the Orthodox church goes to hell.
I said no such thing. Yes, that's right, why not try to wield your 'resentment' as a 'debating point'. More 'appealing to reason' no doubt.

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@philokalia said
I guess this kind of is an appeal to authority because we ultimately are talking about a revealed truth.
I don't much care whether you wake up each morning certain that your dreams about angels and demons were "revealed" truths.

The point here is that you seem singularly unable to render your superstitious beliefs about torture morally coherent in a way that might be credible and relevant to all human beings, but instead you only regurgitate some doctrine of perverse and inexplicable retribution - for people who don't happen to be members of your religion - which only has traction for people who happen to be members of your religion and who have internalized the same points of indoctrination.

If your recitation or regurgitation of your personal opinions about torture has no traction without recourse to appeal to conformation bias "authorites" and "top writers" - if that is all your religion has provided with to propagate your narcissistic/misanthropic dogma - then no wonder you are here trying to pass your ideology off as an 'appeal to reason'. So weak. So wishy-washy. Oh yes, and that's right... I'm going to Torture Myself. Is that how your 'appeal to reason' goes? Gosh.

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"Hey there people who have God figures other than mine! My one will torture you for eternity if you don't believe in Him. It stands to reason. No, wait. That makes Him sound bad. So. Let's try this. You will torture yourself for eternity if you don't believe in Him. That's right. It stands to reason. And if you think I am talking nonsense, I believe you will be tortured by way of revenge. Whoops. No. Let me try that again. If you think I am talking nonsense, I believe you will torture yourself. For eternity. Like I say, it stands to reason. This has been revealed to me by the creator being. Top writers will back me on this."

Philokalia

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FMF, if you have control over your actions, and you are the agent of yourself, why would you not be responsible for the choices that you make?

Why would you not be responsible for how you have lived your life?

We can start with this issue, or we can focus on the revealed truth issue. It doesn't matter. But surely, you recognize that when we are talking about theology, we are talking about the context of said revealed truth, and the explanations of theologians who are authorities on the text is relevant.

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@philokalia said
Why would you not be responsible for how you have lived your life?
I am. I am one hundred per cent responsible for how I have lived my life.

Wait! Oh no. Are you imagining something very, very bad that's going to happen to me after I die? You are?

Oh no.

Is there some valid moral lesson I can draw from this supernatural stuff that appeals to your imagination and that you subscribe to?

No.

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@philokalia said
surely, you recognize that when we are talking about theology, we are talking about the context of said revealed truth, and the explanations of theologians who are authorities on the text is relevant.
Labelling your beliefs "theology" does not give you licence to peddle morally incoherent assertions about moral matters.

If I am still being tortured in burning flames in 10,000,000 years from now because I found Christian doctrine to be non-credible, what would be the moral purpose of inflicting that violence on me, and what would be the reason for doing it if it has no corrective function on me or anyone else?

If you think your torturer god ideology is coherent, why are you so reliant on 'appeals to authority', claiming that your speculations and superstitions are an "appeal to reason", and the use of so many "It is because it is"-type 'arguments'? Is it really the best you can do?

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@fmf said
Don't you feel close to God? Don't you believe your faith is real and true? If we apply your 'argument' - not just to me - but to you, too, then you'll have to admit that neither or I can know, at this point in time, for sure, if your belief in God is real or whether your claim to be close to God is true.
* ...neither you nor I can know, at this point in time, for sure, ...

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@fmf said
Labelling your beliefs "theology" does not give you licence to peddle morally incoherent assertions about moral matters.

If I am still being tortured in burning flames in 10,000,000 years from now because I found Christian doctrine to be non-credible, what would be the moral purpose of inflicting that violence on me, and what would be the reason for doing it if it has no corr ...[text shortened]... n", and the use of so many "It is because it is"-type 'arguments'? Is it really the best you can do?
Actually, the beliefs are drawn directly from what I can take from Orthodox theology. It is called theology commonly. I do not think I am being arrogant by using the word.

I cite the people that are the creators of the theology because they are important figures and I just can't steal credit for very old ideas.

The arguments that they provide are well reasoned.

And yes, citing the Saints and the Bible is the best that anyone can do when talking about Christianity -- unless you are a Saint!

Philokalia

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I have no idea what the threshold for entry into heaven is, but there was a very interesting thread about evil.

Thread 181203

You can go there to read up on some of the key material about what can constitute evil through inaction and through not giving to God. It's also a general misuse of our existence -- and who knows what we are filling that aspect of our existence with!

It is wise, after all, to fear God, and to yearn for God, and to seek Him. To not seek God is a lack.

Here is an interesting quotation on the Fear of God from St. Maximos the Confessor:

81 . Fear of God is of two kinds. The first is generated in us by the threat of punishment. It is through such fear that we develop in due order self-control, patience, hope in God and dispassion; and it is from dispassion that love comes. The second kind of fear is linked with love and constantly produces reverence in the soul, so that it does not grow indifferent to God because of the intimate communion of its love.

82. The first kind of fear is expelled by perfect love when the soul has acquired this and is no longer afraid of punishment (cf. 1 John 4:18). The second kind, as we have already said, is always found united with perfect love. The first kind of fear is referred to in the following two verses: 'Out of fear of the Lord men shun evil (Prov. 16:6), and Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom' (Ps. 111:10). The second kind is mentioned in the following verses: 'Fear of the Lord is pure, and endures for ever' (Ps. 19:9. LXX), and 'Those who fear the Lord will not want for anything' (Ps. 34: 10. LXX).


Living is a great responsibility, and while we live, we realize our own imperfections and shortcomings -- something that necessitates repentance, a process that is lifelong.

We fear God because we understand that He is the author of all existence, and our freedom in his universe comes with responsibility.

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@kellyjay said
Again it is now just eternal punishment is bad and you don’t see justification for it, it has nothing to do with Love?
Jesus loves you so much that he came and died for you so that you can escape the eternal torture he will do to you if you don’t love him back.

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