The god who burns people alive for eternity

@ghost-of-a-duke said
'Why' do I think love and eternal punishment are not compatible?!

Seriously?

@kellyjay said
You cannot back it up, why say it! Of course I'm serious!

@philokalia said
Please state the moral question succinctly.

I've responded to accusations of cruelty by showing that this is a personal choice we all make to eschew God, but I'd like a specific question from you to wrangle.

Let's not beat around the bush.

@fmf said
Same old same old. Have a go next time they come up. There have been several threads over the last few months where you have simply disappeared when the questions are posed. The last time, several weeks ago, you suddenly tangentially quibbled the preposional verb "work on" and the promptly vanished. The ink was still wet on my reiteration of the moral questions. Time and time again it happens. Tackle the questions next time they arise.

@philokalia said
We respect the autonomy of others, and we also hold them accountable for their actions, don't we?

@kellyjay said
You cannot back it up, why say it! Of course I'm serious!

@fmf said
Same old same old. Have a go next time they come up. There have been several threads over the last few months where you have simply disappeared when the questions are posed. The last time, several weeks ago, you suddenly tangentially quibbled the preposional verb "work on" and the promptly vanished. The ink was still wet on my reiteration of the moral questions. Time and time again it happens. Tackle the questions next time they arise.

If your "appeals" are rooted in speculation about magical things, and your moral assertions are based on "It is because it is"-type "truths" and notions attributed to supernatural beings, then whatever stuff you come up with is entirely subjective. Do you actually see your defence of the torturer god ideology as an 'appeal to reason'?

So, I'll try again. Do you actually see your defence of the torturer god ideology as an 'appeal to reason'?

Yeah, pretty much. And I am not going to send myself to a "Hell" place I have no reason to think exists. If believing that people - and not your God figure - arrange for themselves to be tortured for eternity because they "choose" to - if believing that gives you a sense of meaning in your life and is part of your belief that you will enjoy everlasting life, good for you. Do you actually believe that this stuff about 'people sending themselves to hell' is an 'appeal to reason'?

We can both agree that Boeing 747s with 200 passengers in them exist. But the rest of what you have typed seems like waffle. We are not in a Boeing 747s with 200 passengers in it, and the analogy is a dud. Does it work on your fellow Christians? Do you think that your assertion that by lacking belief in your God figure I am choosing to torture myself in burning flames for eternity is an "appeal to reason"?

A choice to do what? I cannot choose to believe your speculations. I either realize I have the same superstitious outlook or I don't. Do you think I am also choosing to be a follower of "Satan" simply because you imagine "Satan" exists?

You are still actually talking about me "choosing" to believe what you believe or else face demented violence? This is your "appeal to reason"?

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Go on then old chap, I'm all ears.

When does love demand Hell?

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Please can you help me out with the equation as I just can't do the math:

Love+freewill+accountability = Eternal suffering.

You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

But whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.

@philokalia said
LOL, I don't get it.

I have interacted with everything you said directed at me. I didn't see a clear, coherent question, only you asking me "do you think this is an appeal to reason?" "Does this work on you?" over and over and over again.

You are making it sound like I run away from these things.

Look, I am a busy guy, FMF, just like I am sure you are, and I ca ...[text shortened]... -- was your question up to this point on 17?

Or do I have to go from pages 18 on and look for it?

OK, OK, OK. In all seriousness, though, where is the big question?

Perhaps I am too stupid to read far enough into your posts. Have mercy on me and tell me the question that you want me to tackle.

Or, be merciful in another way, and stop accusing me of running away.

Certainly, when a man who asks for the mystery question, and he doesn't receive the mystery question, he cannot be blamed for running away from the mystery question, right?

@kellyjay said
You serious? You made a claim I have been attempting to get you to backup that truth statement and now you ask this? Unlike you I can justify my reasoning but before I do either admit you cannot yours, or back it up!

@philokalia said
It would be something like:

God creates man in His Image
Man has free will, just like the angels.
Man can choose to be like God, or like Satan, just like the angels.
Man is redeemable, but if he chooses to be like Satan, he is irredeemable.

Check this out -- John 8:44:

[quote]You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. H ...[text shortened]... spel (as these overly simplistic takes do seem to stay with many who have been atheist a long time).

@Philokalia

The issue that is raised IMO is that if one is suffering hurt forever one must be alive - physically living.

We do not know that by experience. One has gone into death and come out of death - Jesus Christ. I think the authority on the subject should be Christ.

I asked for someone to fairly show me from the Bible that physical death has to mean non-existence. Strong attempts have been made by Universalists and Annhilationists elsewhere. On this forum I don't recall it being attempted.

I did ask.

Philokalia,

I think some have taken a position that if they cannot understand it according to known science then it is not to be believed. Judgment beyond the grave as a inflicted hurtful thing, is to them impossible.

Others of us choose to trust what the Authority has taught even though there are things we cannot completely understand or explain about it.

Death is not non-existence in the Bible.
The "Second death" is not the first life but an existence somehow in separation from God forever.

The Person to blame for this concept is mostly the Person who also did the most that we would be rescued from that existence, whatever it may be, Jesus Christ.

From the same mouth that gave the world the strongest words of love, pardon, long-suffering, understanding, mercy, forgiveness, paradoxically came also the most frightful words of possible eternal judgment.