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17 Sep 19
@kellyjay saidWhat is your understanding of Psalm 36:7?
You can cherry pick scripture to prove anything!
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17 Sep 19
@sonship
Little old lady, spent her life caring for others, never knowingly hurt anybody. Always tried her best to be a decent human being. Doesn't believe in any God.
Will she be cast into eternal torment by your God? Does she warrant, even by human standards, such a 'punishment?
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17 Sep 19
@sonship saidPaul, like any Christian who squared an omnibenevolent deity with one willing to torment people of all eternity, has had his morality corrupted by his faith.
Okay, from a purely "academic" stand point show me how Paul's morality was CORRUPTED because Paul spoke of eternal judgment.
Second Corinthians is about as close as you can get to the man's autobiography. And atheist scholars agree that it is an authentic historical document most likely written by Paul.
It is only 13 chapters. Can show me evidence of his morality be ...[text shortened]... h above all things OUGHT NOT to be?
Is there in your worldview a greatest "ought not?"
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17 Sep 19
2 edits
Little old lady, spent her life caring for others, never knowingly hurt anybody. Always tried her best to be a decent human being. Doesn't believe in any God.
Will she be cast into eternal torment by your God? Does she warrant, even by human standards, such a 'punishment?
That is a real, real hard question for me to answer quickly or at all.
But I don't know that her name is not in the book of life.
I don't think this problem is addressed by us imagining that it is so easy to not be recorded in the book of life. How do you know what was deep in the spirit of the innermost heart of a person about Christ?
I have said before, in Jonah the last verse shows that the all knowing God knew the precise number of people who were not culpable to judgment. He knew just who should not be judged.
Jesus said that the very hairs on our head were all numbered. He maintains the untold gazillion of particles throughout the whole universe. All the stars He knows by name it says. In the Old Testament it says that He kept someone from sinning against Him. The oldest book of the Bible Job is dedicated to the question of why bad things happen to good people. The OLDEST Bible book tackles the question.
I expect to be shocked as to God's wisdom in the end.
I expect to be amazed at God's infallible insight.
The skeptical disbeliever expects that if God turns out to be the truth, he will be amazed at how incompetent, wrong, inferior to His own creatures God is, somehow bestowing on us something that He had not enough of Himself, such that the effect is greater then the cause.
My expectation is different. I expect to be amazed beyond belief at how wise God was about the microscopic details of every beings' life with perfect infallibility.
But you question is really powerful and we are not who are Christians, pieces of wood with no feelings OR no loved ones who are precious in our eyes so very much.
Now that probably doesn't do a thing for you.
But I expect that the last judgment will not necessitate one AFTER in which God Himself is subject to a higher panel to bring justice against Him.
Abraham, early challenges God on behalf of all mankind -
"Shall the Judge of all the earth not do justly?" (Gen. 18:25)
Now you do not believe the New Testament gives a truthful record of Jesus. But I do. And I would say that the agony that Jesus had in His heart for the salvation of men and women could not be exceeded by anyone else living then or ever.
It is impossible for me to consider your valid and tough challenging question without also considering exactly Who it was who died on that cross in an agony of concern PERSONALLY for everyone.
I can't think of your question apart from my belief that as far as it is possible for us to understand, this was God in a man who gave up everything in His love for us.
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17 Sep 19
1 edit
Paul, like any Christian who squared an omnibenevolent deity with one willing to torment people of all eternity, has had his morality corrupted by his faith.
Now this is somewhat circular.
I asked for evidence (and I am out on a limb), say, from Paul's most autobiographical letter opening his heart and its inner workings - FOR signs of him being morally CORRUPT.
Can you get me some evidence that Paul was CORRUPT morally without being circular?
17 Sep 19
@sonship saidPaul was a Pharisee, and a very bad one at that [a murderer] a group condemned by Christ. Pharisees generally would not be in the Kingdom of God because they believed in mouth professions of faith, lip service, and outward appearances of righteousness. They are very much like Christianity today.
@Ghost-of-a-Duke
Paul, like any Christian who squared an omnibenevolent deity with one willing to torment people of all eternity, has had his morality corrupted by his faith.
Now this is somewhat circular.
I asked for evidence (and I am out on a limb), say, from Paul's most autobiographical letter opening his heart and its inner workings - FOR signs ...[text shortened]... rally CORRUPT.
Can you get me some evidence that Paul was CORRUPT morally without being circular?
17 Sep 19
@ghost-of-a-duke saidBecause the soul is naturally immortal.
I'm with you when it comes to those who reject God being rejected in return (won't challenge the logic of that) but why does this result in an omnibenevolent deity tormenting the rejected for all eternity in the fires of hell?
Just as how some get an infinite reward, others get an infinite punishment.
And we call all good because He delivers justice and because He created the universe where this eternal gift is free to us for a very small price. We also call Him all merciful because we who are stained in sin and mired in failure are forgiven.
Omnibenevolence does not equate to up ending cosmic justice because such appeals to your personal concept of the good.
17 Sep 19
@ghost-of-a-duke saidIs this how you came to the conclusion that the Bible has more than one god in it?
Rational thought and study.
You simply reject those parts you don't like and stick with those you do making it a hodgepodge of religious truth and lie?
17 Sep 19
1 edit
@philokalia saidChristians keep saying .. the soul is naturally immortal. but cannot produce one single reference in the bible to support it.
Because the soul is naturally immortal.
Just as how some get an infinite reward, others get an infinite punishment.
And we call all good because He delivers justice and because He created the universe where this eternal gift is free to us for a very small price. We also call Him all merciful because we who are stained in sin and mired in failure are forgiven.
Omn ...[text shortened]... es not equate to up ending cosmic justice because such appeals to your personal concept of the good.
I would say its strange but most of your doctrine comes from the mouth of your 'church fathers'. The doctrine of Christ is of no importance to you.
17 Sep 19
@ghost-of-a-duke saidGod's love is steadfast, but do not take a single verse of the Bible to color something so significant as any of God's attributes. Like many of the truths of scripture, the whole of scripture is required to grasp the meaning, picking, and choosing only those parts liked while ignoring others is not wise. That cannot do that with complex mathematics or science, why should scriptures be different?
What is your understanding of Psalm 36:7?
I think God's love is steadfast, but I don't take as single verse of the Bible to color something so large as any of God's attributes.
Psalm 36 English Standard Version (ESV)
Transgression speaks to the wicked
deep in his heart;
there is no fear of God
before his eyes.
For he flatters himself in his own eyes
that his iniquity cannot be found out and hated.
The words of his mouth are trouble and deceit;
he has ceased to act wisely and do good.
He plots trouble while on his bed;
he sets himself in a way that is not good;
he does not reject evil.
Your steadfast love, O Lord, extends to the heavens,
your faithfulness to the clouds.
Your righteousness is like the mountains of God;
your judgments are like the great deep;
man and beast you save, O Lord.
How precious is your steadfast love, O God!
The children of mankind take refuge in the shadow of your wings.
They feast on the abundance of your house,
and you give them drink from the river of your delights.
For with you is the fountain of life;
in your light do we see light.
Oh, continue your steadfast love to those who know you,
and your righteousness to the upright of heart!
Let not the foot of arrogance come upon me,
nor the hand of the wicked drive me away.
There the evildoers lie fallen;
they are thrust down, unable to rise.
17 Sep 19
@rajk999 saidYea, they relied on their works.
Paul was a Pharisee, and a very bad one at that [a murderer] a group condemned by Christ. Pharisees generally would not be in the Kingdom of God because they believed in mouth professions of faith, lip service, and outward appearances of righteousness. They are very much like Christianity today.
@ghost-of-a-duke saidThis mythical lady ever lie, cheat, steal, gossip, hate anyone, harbor hateful or desires in her heart, I assume she didn't indulge into any of the more gross sins, was she perfect in all respects to every normal inclination all other people have from the moment she was born until she became a little old lady?
@sonship
Little old lady, spent her life caring for others, never knowingly hurt anybody. Always tried her best to be a decent human being. Doesn't believe in any God.
Will she be cast into eternal torment by your God? Does she warrant, even by human standards, such a 'punishment?
Can you draw a square circle?
18 Sep 19
@rajk999 saidWe have references to hell being eternal, and to heaven being eternal, and these are both in the Bible, correct?
Christians keep saying .. the soul is naturally immortal. but cannot produce one single reference in the bible to support it.
I would say its strange but most of your doctrine comes from the mouth of your 'church fathers'. The doctrine of Christ is of no importance to you.
How would it be, then, that the soul would not be immortal? For it goes to a place to exist there eternally.