@philokalia saidYou could go back and finally answer the questions now that you have got all your brand new Greek Orthodox Church dogma off your chest.
I'm struggling to think of something else to present.
But you don't seem to acknowledge that the questions literally were addressed and reasons presented.
I did not fail to explain these ideas. And, if any shred of charity is given, I justified my answers as much as any answers can be justified.
What you are basically complaining about is that I did not categorically provide some kind of PROOF as to why hell is real, it is eternal, and why it is likened to fire, and you complain that my reasons are based on revealed truth in the Bible, and not solely on empirical evidence or pure reason.
It's funny because I've never seen you acknowledge the limitations of reason even though this has been a theme across many pages here.
Any faults in my analysis here?
@fmf saidThis is a telling quotation, perhaps, that gives us a glimpse inside of the mind of FMF
No. You are winging it and I think it is only that enormous chip on your shoulder that keeps you grasping at tangents and red herrings and your "It is because it is" mentality"
Piling assertions upon assertions with regard to your religious faith and dogma do not constitute an answer to what is the moral purpose of torturing the little old lady now, if she dies, and to still b ...[text shortened]... be to the morally incoherent torturer god ideology, I think it undermines you as moral commentators.
Piling assertions upon assertions with regard to your religious faith and dogma do not constitute an answer to what is the moral purpose of torturing the little old lady now, if she dies, and to still be torturing her in burning flames in, say, 400,000,000,000 years from now.
What I've presented are thought of as assertions, not as arguments or rationale, even though that is what they consisted of.
I am guessing this is because in assertion is thought of as something that is unproven, or at least something that is just a bold-faced cling. Normally such a word in a philosophical discussion is only used to, say, mock the rationale behind a statement oh, and if it was in a discussion that was more based on facts it would be indicative of the statement not having any evidence.
But we have to remember, what we are talking about is the internal logic of the religion of Christianity in regards to hell. Christianity is based on a series of texts in theology. Theology has to acknowledge the Primacy of these texts or else it becomes very freeform.
So, when we actually have a discussion on hell, it is a discussion of modality. We are talkin about if x, then y.
So, we are discussing the morality of hell given its existence.
Christianity gives us text which indicate that people who reject God and do not repent for their sins and people who are also Hypocrites face hell. The Christian texts assert that hell is eternal. There is such a thing as annihilationism, but it is a minority View, at least historically so.
I've made a series of statements that have elucidate the Orthodox Christian theology on these points.
So, the idea is that they were merely assertions and that there has not been adequate reasoning of a moral nature to Merit them being considered good statements.
However, the lunch if it has been employed hasn't really been attacked, it has been mocked though. It's just been asserted that it has been inadequate to explain it. So, I'm not really sure what to say because the logic behind these things was already explained once, but I guess we should do it again.
No one is going to have an excuse.
Romans 1:18-20 English Standard Version (ESV)
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
So, with the given that there is a God who sends people to hell for eternity, what is the rationale?
First, we as humans in particular have free will and control over our actions. We have faculties of thought which can be developed or can be darkened. The conclusion that we draw from this is that because we have free will we also have responsibility that comes from that freedom.
so,, because we are special and we have free will, we have nous or a soul. Our mind exists on a level that is above mere physicality. It takes on a diamond of Eternity because of the special relationship that we have with God. Of course, this is an is. It has to basically be given from the reality that we know from the Bible. It is what is resurrected for the second judgment that is alluded to in the Bible. This is a revealed truth and is quite basic.
We are judge them based on our relationship with God and our relationship to our own sins. We are judged based off of whether or not we were hint and whether or not we have sought God for forgiveness. There are also those who have heard the good news, and those who have not heard the good news. There are those who have been exposed to the church into our members of the church, and those who have not been exposed to it and are not members. It is a great mystery as to where these exact things are Delineated. However, there are consequences for where we stand.
Those who love God and repent of their sins are guaranteed eternal life if this is done with sincerity. Those who consciously reject the gospel in the light and who do not repent would be in danger of Hellfire though I cannot judge that.
This is because God is our creator and we exist as image bearers of him. We are called to bring good into the world and the universe to glorify God, and it is expected that we reach our own forms of actualization and growth so that we can give praise to God and also function as companions to his glory. It can also be thought of as if we are all performing a kind of liturgy over the whole of creation. Our actions imbue things with meaning and good, or they Sully Them.
So, because of this Great role that we actually have to potentially be with God in eternity in to be partners in a great liturgy over the universe, we have a great responsibility to try to live up to that. All our impact on the world as it stands now is also great. I believe in something called occasional ism. This is the idea that God is present and active in the world as we understand it. I also understand that it is the church that is a source of Grace in the world. We pray Grace into existence. So through our efforts goodness is expanded. Of course this is what is willed by God and we can do nothing without, but it is through the grace that we receive that initially was brought into the world of God oh, it is through our doing what is expected of us, that the world does really become a better place. By neglecting right action in prayer we actually make the world a worse off place. And just as importantly believe it or not, this results in US arming ourselves by neglecting. For we then begin losing ourselves.
So, those who neglect to praise God that are in the no, actually are committing a great sin even if it appears just to be a personal choice of disbelief. It is actually an action that has great ramifications for themselves, and believe it or not, and others.
Those who waste of time and do not seek to better themselves in a world where lives are destroyed very easily through carelessness and, those who exist to indulge their own interests only, and those who deny God his rightful place, and who do not seek to bring his grace into the world, actually have a greater role than they would claim. For the responsibility that comes with free will is actually quite fabulous.
It determines where we go. They can also have an effect on where others go. That is not to say that one person failing in their freedom means that other people will also necessarily stumble. But it is true that the selfish indulgences of a person can detrimentally impact others in the world. In this very life.
So, I don't know the details of who gets in and who does not get it, I don't know the details of who absolutely is a member of the church and who is adequately repented. I have no idea what the cutoff for heaven is. But the weight of what we are doing is quite incredible.
We Choose our own fate through the same means that we choose how we spend our time and how we live our life. Of course some people will have diminished capacity due to the circumstances of their life and their mental abilities. No one can see how that works except God himself. But generally speaking, if you are in this discussion, you have a great deal of free will in a great control over your own Fate.
Eternity is in the balance because we are given the opportunity to actively participate in the bettering of the world, and the bettering of ourselves, in the winning Souls over for Christ. And failure to Proclaim these truths and act upon them is this a big deal.
We actually send ourselves to Hell through our own actions and through our own choice to repent or not to repent.
If we fail ourselves, the results are eternal. This is because the rewards are Eternal. This is also because our attitudes that we build up become quite ossified and quite determined. Persons we become are the persons that we are. Our time is finite.. And this is a test.
The people who reject God initially and who don't operate off of the basis of Faith are not people who are operating off of one of the most fundamental basics for who we are as members of our family and our society. Somebody who is in it for the reward and who doesn't want to operate with faith in God is on a different level, a level below.
For we also are not supposed to indulge ourselves in a sense of pride. We have to be humble and who we are. Of course we should use our minds and we should look around at what is about us but we are also obligated to understand that we don't have all of the answers.
More importantly, if we do seek God and show ourselves to him as ready to follow in pursue humbly, we can receive a degree of certainty in our hearts and also in actuality.
So the burden on who we are as people is quite large for the reason that our role is quite large and that we have a great freedom. What we do in this life is how we can be remembered and certainly leaves the Legacy by which God can judge us. This is why punishment and reward can be concluded and are eternal.
And moreover the results of our actions are real and can actually determine a lot for the rest of the world. That which is evil demands of punishment.
As for who will be determined to be evil, I don't know who knows. Only God.
@philokalia saidHold your head up high if you think you should.
But you don't seem to acknowledge that the questions literally were addressed and reasons presented.
I did not fail to explain these ideas. And, if any shred of charity is given, I justified my answers as much as any answers can be justified.
What you are basically complaining about is that I did not categorically provide some kind of PROOF as to why hell is real, i ...[text shortened]... reason even though this has been a theme across many pages here.
Any faults in my analysis here?
@kellyjay saidRead further cherry-picker.
No one is going to have an excuse.
Romans 1:18-20 English Standard Version (ESV)
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and di ...[text shortened]... ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. (Romans 1:32 KJV)
Evil doers are worthy of death. Show me one place where anyone in the bible speaks of your eternal torment false doctrine.
@philokalia saidWhat is the moral justification and purpose of torturing the little old lady? Why do you believe the most intensely agonizing physical suffering, inflicted for billions and billions of year, repeated infinitely, is the morally sound punishment for the little old lady's lack of belief?
So, with the given that there is a God who sends people to hell for eternity, what is the rationale?
First, we as humans in particular have free will and control over our actions. We have faculties of thought which can be developed or can be darkened. The conclusion that we draw from this is that because we have free will we also have responsibility that comes from that ...[text shortened]... emands of punishment.
As for who will be determined to be evil, I don't know who knows. Only God.
@fmf saidI cannot say who this little old lady is. This is purely hypothetical.
What is the moral justification and purpose of torturing the little old lady? Why do you believe the most intensely agonizing physical suffering, inflicted for billions and billions of year, repeated infinitely, is the morally sound punishment for the little old lady's lack of belief?
But if someone were to denounce the Holy Spirit, denounce the trinity, denounce Jesus Christ, denounced God, Etc, and they believe that this was all nonsense, and they actively encouraged others toward this sort of way of thinking, that does appear to be something that the Bible would indicate send somebody to hell, right?
So, let's say that that is the case.
Anybody who denies God and does not pray to become a better person, does not repent for their sins, and does not seek to be a light to the world, destroys themselves and through this attitude, especially actively communicating this attitude, brings others with them down very dark and negative path.
Even if somebody can do good deeds on the outside and live a moral life on the outside, anyone who denounces God and reject repentance as a principal is somebody who is directing others for the negative path and also isn't healing themselves internally.
They are actually committing the sin of Pride. They are putting themselves above gone very directly and because of this they believe that they can reject God.
There for no Grace enters their life and no Grace enters the life of others through them. Their minds are darkened and they have a negative Collective influence.
In Christianity, it is possible for the week in disabled who do not make any great contribution that can be seen to the world to be healed in to have a positive influence. Likewise, a person who is wealthy and appears to be good but is actually dark on the inside does not receive any benefit through superficial Works. They are judged by who they actually are, not who they appear to be.
We do not believe appearances are what matters. It is our relationship with God and our true relationship to others that matters.
So it would be on that basis that someone who appears to do good can I truly have a negative mindset in mental life that is graceless and has a net loss for themselves and Humanity. Likewise, someone who appeared to not be good to the whole world can actually be safe.
Surely if we understand that diseases can be caused by things that we do not see and wreak death and Chaos throughout the world, we can also understand that those who appear to be good can actually have the greatest negative impact on people if they are acting in bad faith.
@fmf saidYou'd agree that it would be awfully low up somebody to claim another person has run away when they've actually stood by the thread and given their thoughts openly and transparent, right?
Hold your head up high if you think you should.
To say that they run away from it as opposed to have done what they actually did, which is stated their full beliefs, would be telling a lie about them, wouldn't it?
@philokalia saidWhat is the moral purpose and the moral justification of using torture by fire? You seem squeamish about torture and about fire. You avoid using the words.
I cannot say who this little old lady is. This is purely hypothetical.
But if someone were to denounce the Holy Spirit, denounce the trinity, denounce Jesus Christ, denounced God, Etc, and they believe that this was all nonsense, and they actively encouraged others toward this sort of way of thinking, that does appear to be something that the Bible would indicate send s ...[text shortened]... to be good can actually have the greatest negative impact on people if they are acting in bad faith.
@divegeester saidIt's your replies that fall short of straightforward.
Anytime you want to come back to me with your promised “serious and considered” response to the straightforward challenge in the OP please feel completely free to do so.
The Bible is clear. Those who reject Christ go to hell.
@philokalia saidIf you don't think you are running away, why are you worried? I have been accused of running away in the past; it doesn't worry me. I have been accused of lying; it doesn't worry me. Why are you worried?
You'd agree that it would be awfully low up somebody to claim another person has run away when they've actually stood by the thread and given their thoughts openly and transparent, right?
To say that they run away from it as opposed to have done what they actually did, which is stated their full beliefs, would be telling a lie about them, wouldn't it?
@secondson saidActually the passage you quoted earlier says hell is cast into the lake of fire. According to you, the lake of fire is a place of torment, then hell is tormented for eternity? What about death, cast into the lake of fire and tormented for eternity as well?
It's your replies that fall short of straightforward.
The Bible is clear. Those who reject Christ go to hell.
The ones who disobey the commandments are the ones who reject Christ. Your church doctrine rejects Christ's commandments and all who follow your church doctrine are guilty of rejecting Christ. Matt 25 says Jesus Christ cast all who do not do the good works He commanded will be cast out of the Kingdom of God. Your church is guilty.
@rajk999 saidI showed you scripture and you ignored them as you do every time you are shown truth over your self centered doctrine of justification through works.
Read further cherry-picker.
Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. (Romans 1:32 KJV)
Evil doers are worthy of death. Show me one place where anyone in the bible speaks of your eternal torment false doctrine.