The god who burns people alive for eternity

@secondson said
You do err again FMF.

enōpion ~ 'in the presence of', means none of that.

So does "in the presence of" mean He is not there, he's somewhere else?

@secondson said
There's nothing to "own".

It would be intellectually incoherent to suggest that "in the presence of" means anything other than that.

It's literally obtuse to think it means Jesus is actually in the burning sulfur with those who had received the mark of the beast.

Surely you're not going to continue to pursue that line of reasoning that says the verse means that!

Who said 'Jesus is actually in the burning sulfur'?!

The verse says he is in the 'presence of' those being tormented. I'm sure he has a nice seat away from the heat, but not so far that the tormented can't see him and realize how foolish they were to reject him.

@fmf said
So does "in the presence of" mean He is not there, he's somewhere else?

It doesn't mean Jesus is in hell, as divegeester said, to which I have repeatedly stated, but to no avail.

We have a picture of an event described in Revelation 14 that divegeester has mischaracterized, and which you continue to belabor.

Are there no mature adults posting in this forum?

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

The verse says he is in the 'presence of' those being tormented. I'm sure he has a nice seat away from the heat, but not so far that the tormented can't see him and realize how foolish they were to reject him.

Even if that were true, which is ludicrous, the Son of God was seen as the forth person with the three Hebrew young men in Nebuchadnezzar's burning furnace. (Dan.3:25)

God was not only able to regulate exactly how much damage the fire did to the boys (none in this case), and have Christ (before His incarnation) stroll around in the flames with them.

Your best bet is to just take the warning of the verse as it is and not try to find loopholes to jeer at it in unbelief.

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

I replied, 'In the presence of,' sonship, 'in the presence of...' - Revelation says such torment happens in 'the presence' of the lamb.

How can you then casually claim he does need to be physically there?!

Could you stand outside of the bars of a prison cell while a prisoner was inside (in your presence) ?

@sonship said
@Ghost-of-a-Duke

The verse says he is in the 'presence of' those being tormented. I'm sure he has a nice seat away from the heat, but not so far that the tormented can't see him and realize how foolish they were to reject him.

Even if that were true, which is ludicrous, the Son of God was seen as the forth person with the three Hebrew young men in N ...[text shortened]... just take the warning of the verse as it is and not try to find loopholes to jeer at it in unbelief.

I extract no warning from revelations. None whatsoever. No warnings, no fear.

And such abhorrence, a million miles away from a loving deity, deserves to be jeered at.

@sonship said
@Ghost-of-a-Duke

I replied, 'In the presence of,' sonship, 'in the presence of...' - Revelation says such torment happens in 'the presence' of the lamb.

How can you then casually claim he does need to be physically there?!

Could you stand outside of the bars of a prison cell while a prisoner was inside (in your presence) ?

Look at you, clutching for straws.

Tragic.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Who said 'Jesus is actually in the burning sulfur'?!

The verse says he is in the 'presence of' those being tormented. I'm sure he has a nice seat away from the heat, but not so far that the tormented can't see him and realize how foolish they were to reject him.

Divegeester said, of the verse in question, that "in the presence of" means Jesus is there in hell.

I've been trying to drive that point home since I first started posting in this thread. That has been my point of contention throughout these pages, but no one seems to be paying attention.

Obviously, according to the phrase "in the presence of", Jesus and His angels have a clear view of those in hell that received the mark of the beast.

Whether or not "the tormented" are cognizant of who sees who is not indicated in the text.

Your inference that "the tormented" "realize how foolish they were to reject" Christ isn't mentioned in the text, but may be inferred.

Either way, the event is future, but this is now.

Certainly, if you have misjudged reality, and the God of the Bible has forewarned, you wouldn't want to "realize how foolish" you were after it's too late.

You will probably imagine that I, and others that believe the Bible, have some kind of twisted and perverted sense of elation at the prospect of the damned as described in scripture. No doubt there are some carnal Christians that do, but not I.

The Christian's commission today is to bring as many to Christ as possible, but only God can bring Christ to man. It's "good news". Why wouldn't anyone want to live forever? Jesus is the only way to eternal life.

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

Look at you, clutching for straws.

Tragic.

Whew! That has a bad sound to it.

Look all you want. There are too many weaknesses in your attempt to turn Jesus into the sadist you need.

They are tormented in His presence and in the presence of His angels.

I gave you more than one reason why this is not a problem for me.
No grasping at straws, just considering a few weaknesses of your rationale.

Tragic, Ghost says.

I submit that the TRAGEDY is that some so severely punished will be so taken over by the Devil that they will not repent ... no matter what.

Here's your tragic tragedy -

"And the fourth poured out his bowl upon the sun; and it was given to burn men with fire.

And men were burned with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God, who has the authority over these plagues, and they did not repent so as to give Him glory.

And the fifth poured out his bowl upon the throne of the beast [Antichrist] and his kingdom became darkened; and they gnawed their tongues for pain.

And blasphemed the God of heaven for their pains and for their sores; and they did not repent of their works." (Rev. 16:8-11)

They have locked themselves up from within and find it impossible to repent. Men so totally taken over by Satan's rebellion - there's your "tragic".

@sonship said
Tragic, Ghost says.

I submit that the TRAGEDY is that some so severely punished will be so taken over by the Devil that they will not repent ... no matter what.

Here's your tragic tragedy -

[quote] "And the fourth poured out his bowl upon the sun; and it was given to burn men with fire.

[b]And men were burned with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of G ...[text shortened]... ind it impossible to repent. Men so totally taken over by Satan's rebellion - there's your "tragic".

Isn't it a wonderful thing sonship, that God has granted man with repentance?

What would we do without it?

Repentance ~ to turn away from sin, and turn towards God.

@SecondSon

Isn't it a wonderful thing sonship, that God has granted man with repentance?

What would we do without it?

Repentance ~ to turn away from sin, and turn towards God.

Yes, Today if you hear His voice, the word says, harden not your heart.

"While it is said, Today if you hear His voice, do not harden your heart as in the provocation." (Heb. 3:15)

I also have been helped by -

"Seek Jehovah while He may be found;
Call upon Him while He is near.
Let the wicked forsake his way,
And the evil doer, his thoughts;

And let him return to Jehovah, and He will have compassion on him;
And to our God, for He will pardon abundantly." (Isaiah 55:6,7)

@sonship said
@SecondSon

Isn't it a wonderful thing sonship, that God has granted man with repentance?

What would we do without it?

Repentance ~ to turn away from sin, and turn towards God.

Yes, Today if you hear His voice, the word says, harden not your heart.

"While it is said, Today if you hear His voice, do not harden your heart as in the provocation." ...[text shortened]... e will have compassion on him;
And to our God, for He will pardon abundantly." (Isaiah 55:6,7)

This is a partial list of some important aspects of our salvation.

We are redeemed. (Gal. 3:13)
We are accepted in the beloved. (Eph. 1:6)
We are justified freely by his grace. (Rom. 3:24)
We have redemption through his blood. (Eph. 1:7)
We are free from the law of sin and death. (Rom. 8:2)
We are not our own, for we are bought with a price. (1 Cor. 6:19,20) We are justified by faith without the deeds of the law. (Rom. 3:28)
We are washed, sanctified and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Cor. 6:11)
We are complete in Him. (Col. 2:10)

And many more incredible things besides that were all accomplished on our behalf by Jesus on the cross.

@secondson said
This is a partial list of some important aspects of our salvation.

We are redeemed. (Gal. 3:13)
We are accepted in the beloved. (Eph. 1:6)
We are justified freely by his grace. (Rom. 3:24)
We have redemption through his blood. (Eph. 1:7)
We are free from the law of sin and death. (Rom. 8:2)
We are not our own, for we are bought with a price. (1 Cor. 6:19,20) We are ...[text shortened]... many more incredible things besides that were all accomplished on our behalf by Jesus on the cross.

Your version of Jesus burns non Christians alive for eternity.

@secondson said
This is a partial list of some important aspects of our salvation.

We are redeemed. (Gal. 3:13)
We are accepted in the beloved. (Eph. 1:6)
We are justified freely by his grace. (Rom. 3:24)
We have redemption through his blood. (Eph. 1:7)
We are free from the law of sin and death. (Rom. 8:2)
We are not our own, for we are bought with a price. (1 Cor. 6:19,20) We are ...[text shortened]... many more incredible things besides that were all accomplished on our behalf by Jesus on the cross.

You have missed the mark

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity,
I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries,
and all knowledge; and though I have all faith,
so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor,
and though I give my body to be burned,
and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
(1 Corinthians 13:1-3 KJV)

The Good Samaritan is a Saint compared to you church Christians.