28 Nov 15
Originally posted by FMFI disagree. Some of it is. Some is not. We are guided by Holy Spirit in such a way that bolsters our faith in the right direction. Even you can't be certain because you have rejected your spiritual guide, like a man traveling downriver who has thrown away his oars. But the "self-evident" aspect of this is only clear to those whose faith is intact. Those who lose their faith also lose discernment, and that surely should be self-evident.
[b]If you live to be a thousand years old you will never see this world be anything other than what you see it to be today.
The ideal of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights is to spread its truth to as many as possible while we can. This is not a perfect world and never will be as long as man is at the helm.
We wait for the appearing of the one that w ...[text shortened]... what you claim is "self-evident", regardless of how certain and sincere you are in your beliefs.
But it's late here. It gets more difficult to think clearly after being up for 20+ hours. 🙁
I think I'm off to bed.
28 Nov 15
Originally posted by FMFI'm marking my calendar right now for today is the day that I agree with you completely on this subject.
No, but I think that the argument that all people being equal in terms of their rights is far more morally sound than the arguments in favour of political inequality.
It's a sure sign of the Apocalypse. 😀
28 Nov 15
Originally posted by Suzianne
How much money a man has is no argument against all men being equal. A man is a man. They all put their pants on one leg at a time. They all only last maybe a month without food and at most a few days without water.
And they ALL have certain rights, simply by being a human being. This should be clear.
They all put their pants on one leg at a time
This is true, but for some once their pants are on they make gold records. That's the self evident truth!
Sorry, couldn't resist.
28 Nov 15
Originally posted by Proper KnobIt's been my position for some time now that God knew that the Bible was being written for ancient man. As a result, it had to be acceptable to ancient man. He had a hard enough time getting His own people to follow him loyally. Yes, all men are created equal, but man had ideas of his own. Upsetting that apple cart would have caused more chaos than men could handle. Look at America's own civil war over slavery. On a world-wide scale such a fight with similar rates of loss of life would have been incredible. The time to right that wrong would not come until the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, and even now slavery is very slowly being eradicated everywhere. (Now that is a lot closer to a self-evident truth, that slavery is wrong. Now, I mean, not then.) At the time the Torah was being written, God knew slavery would not be eliminated for centuries, and so He managed to codify a proper way to treat slaves so that fewer would die in the process. And certainly, passing slaves on to children, and seeing they were treated reasonably was better than just passing them off to whomever who might not treat them as well. And now slavery is almost universally seen as evil, and so can now be eliminated (or at least made to have stringent penalties) without much devastation to world economies. This was not true 3500 years ago, it was much more widespread. And now we have, on this planet, a nation which has codified that "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal..." Yes, we have come a long way. And yes, I give thanks to God for this.
Slavery laws in the Bible show this to be unequivocally false. Your God gave laws to the Hebrews stating that non-Hebrew slaves could be kept as property and passed on to the children of the slave owner. How can you say with a straight face God created ALL men equal?
28 Nov 15
Originally posted by SuzianneNo, that is not what makes something 'self evident'. Something is 'self evident' when the justification is obvious.
That's what makes a truth self-evident. It requires no "justification".
It is known to be true.
Except in this case it is only known by you. For you to convince someone else, you are going to have to give justification rather than just repeating it over and over.
Even to you.
Sorry, but your mind reading has failed.
Unless you're claiming that there is a class of men that deserve rights that you yourself do not have claim to.
What are 'rights'? How does one decide what one 'deserves'?
And while we are on the topic, do you support my right to american citizenship given that I deserve it?
28 Nov 15
Originally posted by SuzianneWhat do you mean by equal? When we say that 2 + 2 = 4 we are not making a political statement about the rights of digits, we are making a statement of identity. To say that two men (in the wider sense of the word) are equal does not mean that they are the same person. The claim that we all have the same rights is not the same as the claim that we are all created equal.
How much money a man has is no argument against all men being equal. A man is a man. They all put their pants on one leg at a time. They all only last maybe a month without food and at most a few days without water.
And they ALL have certain rights, simply by being a human being. This should be clear.
So, what do you mean when you say that all men are created equal? Under close examination the statement fails if we take it literally. The British formulation of a similar concept is that we are all equal before the law. What this means is that if for some reason I was to be in dispute with the Duke of Norfolk then if it came to court the case would not automatically be decided in his Grace's favour simply because he is a Duke and I a commoner. Here the equality means something concrete.
You seem to be basing your statements on a theory of Natural Rights. Your statement that that all men have rights by virtue of being born should be clear just isn't clear to me. It is not remotely clear to me that such a thing as a natural right exists. It is also not clear to me that such a concept is remotely meaningful in a society whose laws do not recognize individual rights.
Something I feel I should point out. The framers of the preamble to your constitution did not say: "The following truths are self-evident.", but "We hold the following truths to be self-evident.", which is a different statement; essentially it is a cultural statement, for those creating the United States constitution it is self-evident, in other words any good American should regard them as automatic; but not everyone is an American.
28 Nov 15
Originally posted by wolfgang59Which truths would they be? Name one truth about the world which is self-evident.
Good question.
Universally self evident would mean that all minds agreed.
So to be pedantic I would have to say that "No truth is universally self evident".
However from a practiccal point of view obviously some truths are self evident;
28 Nov 15
Originally posted by FMFThis.
Surely "all men are created equal" is therefore, if anything, "self-evidently" [b]not true ~ and is at best, just a piece of ideology and wishful thinking at variance with all evidence and actual facts?[/b]
Equality is an ideal. Like many ideals, it is never fully realized. There is only a daily struggle with the natural order of things, attempting to equalize the unequal.
28 Nov 15
Originally posted by Suzianne*Pardon the interruption*
If you agree with it, isn't it self-evident to you?
It is possible that someone agrees with something, not because it's self-evident, but instead because they have struggled with the claim and put a lot of thought into it before finally concluding it is true. This makes it 'evident only after further consideration'.
28 Nov 15
Originally posted by wolfgang59This is exactly why i thought it was silly of you to ask in another thread, "Does your God have fun". Because you don't believe in it anyways. What was the point?
Too Proud & Stubborn to listen to the Truth.
I have intentionally used capital letters so that you realise this is The TRUTH.
[b]There are no gods or pixies or faeries
Are you too proud?
Or are you too stubborn?
To accept that THIS IS THE TRUTH[/b]
At least i try to have an open mind, when another asks a question "What is spiritual life?" i am not into Paganism, nor the Occult. but in both cases they are into spiritual life.
I am not Hindu either, but that doesn't mean i can't appreciate Dasa's writings and thoughts either. Even some of the things you talk about, like the human spirit. This is a part of Truth too.
I'm not telling you to think like i do. (that would be scarey, ha ha) I'm just saying, Skip the sarcasm, and be real. Challenge the Christians, why they think like they do. And if we are all lost causes, so be it.
(i lost my train of thought, can't remember my own conclusion) LOL. One of those days.
28 Nov 15
Originally posted by SuzianneYes I do know what you mean. The Word of God has infinite application, but only one correct interpretation. God knows all, and we are privileged to learn and understand about who He is according to His Word and by His grace. It will take eternity.
(I've just re-written this reply like four times now... 🙂 )
You might be right. I sat here and tried to come up with "Well, I don't know why God did X." But then I said, "Well, no, I do know why." I ran through like five examples, but I found I have a reasonable reason for all of it. But a lot of that is just conjecture on my part. I can support mu ...[text shortened]... op at that time, but some of it I can't know for a fact right now. You know what I mean?
28 Nov 15
Originally posted by twhiteheadI own a dictionary, I would assume you do too. If not, there are dictionaries online if you're confused.
What are 'rights'? How does one decide what one 'deserves'?
This "It depends on how you define X." is a crappy, stupid argument. One I hear WAY too often. It's like people who constantly say "What?" They're just buying time to come up with something that doesn't sound quite so stupid.