Too Proud & Stubborn

Originally posted by wolfgang59
You are an idiot.

Aren't we all!

Or are you just too proud and stubborn to admit it?

Originally posted by josephw
Aren't we all!

Or are you just too proud and stubborn to admit it?

Neither. False dichotomy.

Originally posted by FMF
If you seek to see the political demand "All men ought to be equal in the eyes of the law etc. right from the moment they are born", then I am with you all the way. But it's a slogan, and aspiration, a belief. I don't see how it can simply be described as "self-evident". It wasn't even "self-evident" in the minds of the first people who said that it was "self-evident".

No, it is NOT merely a "slogan". It is a basic, fundamental truth. If you want to make a certain class of men somehow "inferior" then you can start with those who say that "All men are created equal" is NOT "self-evident".

Originally posted by Suzianne
You are positing that no, men are NOT equal, so that means that yes, some are "better" than others, or somehow more "privileged".

I am saying that men should be equal in political terms, in terms of justice, and rights. All that is just one aspect of the human condition. There are other aspects though: intelligence, physical abilities and attributes, genetics , psychological characteristics, morality, social and economic circumstances, and health etc..In none of these things are 'men' born equal.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
It is not made clear by any religion.

But I do agree with the sentiment.

Oh, no, religion makes this clear too.

Perhaps that's why an apostate like FMF can't bring himself to agree that it is self-evidently true.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Oh, no, religion makes this clear too.

Perhaps that's why an apostate like FMF can't bring himself to agree that it is self-evidently true.

All religions have been used to elevate and/or justify men in authority.

Originally posted by Suzianne
No, it is NOT merely a "slogan". It is a basic, fundamental truth. If you want to make a certain class of men somehow "inferior" then you can start with those who say that "All men are created equal" is NOT "self-evident".

But I don't "want to make a certain class of men somehow inferior" and yet I am saying that the political belief "All men are created equal" is not "self-evident". I My belief is that "All men should be equal in terms of their rights" but I don't claim that they are "equal" in any other ways ~ the evidence won't allow me to ~ so the notion that humans are "equal" (aside from what should be their each and every roster of political rights) simply cannot be described as "self-evident".

Originally posted by Suzianne
Perhaps that's why an apostate like FMF can't bring himself to agree that it is self-evidently true.

If you and are are "created" equal, what bearing does your religious notion that I am "apostate" have on our equality or on our discussion about humans being equal?

Originally posted by FMF
What is your evidence for this?

Reality.

Being created equal is God's design for us all. No one is better than another in God's eyes based on one's own merit. That idea is of human origin.

But we live in a world corrupted by man's ideas. Hence inequality. It is true, we are not equal in the eyes of man. And it's a fact. Who can deny it?

But that's not how God wants us to think of each other. The founding fathers understood these things. That's why we have the Bill of Rights.

Originally posted by FMF
I am saying that men [b]should be equal in political terms, in terms of justice, and rights. All that is just one aspect of the human condition. There are other aspects though: intelligence, physical abilities and attributes, genetics , psychological characteristics, morality, social and economic circumstances, and health etc..In none of these things are 'men' born equal.[/b]

But when talking about having certain rights, it is absolutely true that all men are created equal. All men have these rights, simply by virtue of being human, and therefore they are equal. This should be self-evident to anybody, except those with an agenda to somehow prove themselves part of the "privileged" class.

This is also why I say that material wealth, intelligence, social station have NOTHING to do with making men UNequal. Men have certain rights, simply by virtue of being human, and that self-evidently includes ALL men.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Oh, please. This is your anti-American sentiment talking.

This is deflection. I'd rather you address what I am saying.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
All religions have been used to elevate and/or justify men in authority.

All except one.

Originally posted by Suzianne
This should be self-evident to anybody, except those with an agenda to somehow prove themselves part of the "privileged" class.

As you say it is not universally "self-evident" then.

Originally posted by josephw
Reality.

Being created equal is God's design for us all. No one is better than another in God's eyes based on one's own merit. That idea is of human origin.

But we live in a world corrupted by man's ideas. Hence inequality. It is true, we are not equal in the eyes of man. And it's a fact. Who can deny it?

But that's not how God wants us to think of each other. The founding fathers understood these things. That's why we have the Bill of Rights.

Yes. "Endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights." This means ALL men get them. ALL men. This is how they are equal. Precisely.

Why is it that, apparently, only Americans understand this?

Originally posted by josephw
All except one.

Many, many people would say this from many, many religions.

It means NOTHING.

THINK.