Too Proud & Stubborn

Originally posted by Suzianne
Some truths ARE "self-evident". TJ just found it expedient to abrogate his slaves' "unalienable" rights.

Beyond "I exist" which is empirically pretty undeniable, to me at least, and some statements about mathematics and logic (which are expected to be valid rather than sound) I don't see that any truths about the world are self-evident. I think that that statement requires an awful lot of justification.

Originally posted by DeepThought
Beyond "I exist" which is empirically pretty undeniable, to me at least, and some statements about mathematics and logic (which are expected to be valid rather than sound) I don't see that any truths about the world are self-evident. I think that that statement requires an awful lot of justification.

Jesus said, "I AM" which seems basically equivalent to "I exist."

Jesus also said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life."

Why do you object to that?

Could it be because it is not self-evident to you?
Maybe that is why Jesus had to tell us.

Originally posted by DeepThought
Beyond "I exist" which is empirically pretty undeniable, to me at least, and some statements about mathematics and logic (which are expected to be valid rather than sound) I don't see that any truths about the world are self-evident. I think that that statement requires an awful lot of justification.

But that's the entire point, some truths are "self-evident". That means that they're obviously true. They don't need "justification". Anyone can see that they're true. "All men are created equal" is one of these "self-evident" truths.

But just because they are "self-evident", this doesn't mean that people will act in a fashion that supports them as true. Man has shown a tremendous propensity to act in his own self-perceived self-interest, and everybody else, *and* their rights, be damned.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Man has shown a tremendous propensity to act in his own self-perceived self-interest, and everybody else, *and* their rights, be damned.

So, you seem to be admitting that man acts in his own self-perceived self-interest and therefore the rights of others "be damned". That's reality. Plenty of evidence to support what you say.

And there's plenty of evidence that people are clearly not equal in terms of their intelligence, their physical abilities, their physical attributes, their genetic make up, their psychological well being, their moral compasses, their social circumstances.

They are clearly not equal in terms of their economic circumstances either, their economic power and security, their political power, or in terms of how much control they have over their lives; furthermore most people are not ~ realistically ~ equal in terms of the law. Far from it.

Surely "all men are created equal" is therefore, if anything, "self-evidently" not true ~ and is at best, just a piece of ideology and wishful thinking at variance with all evidence and actual facts?

Originally posted by Suzianne
But that's the entire point, some truths are "self-evident". That means that they're obviously true. They don't need "justification". Anyone can see that they're true. "All men are created equal" is one of these "self-evident" truths.

But just because they are "self-evident", this doesn't mean that people will act in a fashion that supports them as t ...[text shortened]... act in his own self-perceived self-interest, and everybody else, *and* their rights, be damned.

What is self-evident about the statement: "All men are created equal."? In the medieval period they would have claimed the converse was self-evident, with an argument running along the lines of "Otherwise why would God have made one man rich and another poor?". I don't think that truth is as simple a concept as you think.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Jesus said, "I AM" which seems basically equivalent to "I exist."

Jesus also said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life."

Why do you object to that?

Could it be because it is not self-evident to you?
Maybe that is why Jesus had to tell us.

I'm not objecting to it, my argument is with the notion of self-evident truths.

Originally posted by DeepThought
What is self-evident about the statement: "All men are created equal."?

The Caucasian men who coined the phrase didn't think it was "self-evident" enough for it to apply to Negro men and they probably didn't have Caucasian women in mind either ~ when did the latter get a right to vote that was equal to men? 1920?

Originally posted by FMF
What about "The Truth" according to Hindus, Muslims and Jehovah's Witnesses, for example?

Counterfeits. Deceptions. Lies.

Jesus proved He was who He said He was when He rose from the grave. "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me".

There is no other 'The Truth'. Jesus makes exclusive claim to being the only way, truth and life, and He proved it by not only His life, but by His death and subsequent resurrection.

So there you have it. The whole Truth in a nutshell. Jesus is the foundation of all Truth, and no other can or has ever made such a claim and proved it as did Jesus. The Truth stands undiluted and unchallenged by any other's life or words. Jesus is The Truth.

Originally posted by FMF
So, you seem to be admitting that man acts in his own self-perceived self-interest and therefore the rights of others "be damned". That's reality. Plenty of evidence to support what you say.

And there's plenty of evidence that people are clearly not equal in terms of their intelligence, their physical abilities, their physical attributes, their genetic make ...[text shortened]... t, just a piece of ideology and wishful thinking at variance with all evidence and actual facts?

All men are equal in the cradle. Or in their mother's womb.

They are created equal.

You always have to make everything more difficult than it is.

Originally posted by DeepThought
What is self-evident about the statement: "All men are created equal."? In the medieval period they would have claimed the converse was self-evident, with an argument running along the lines of "Otherwise why would God have made one man rich and another poor?". I don't think that truth is as simple a concept as you think.

How much money a man has is no argument against all men being equal. A man is a man. They all put their pants on one leg at a time. They all only last maybe a month without food and at most a few days without water.

And they ALL have certain rights, simply by being a human being. This should be clear.

Originally posted by Suzianne
All men are equal in the cradle. Or in their mother's womb.

They are created equal.

How so? There is no evidence to support this and almost unlimited evidence that proves the contrary.

"All men are created equal" is a political belief and not a "self-evident" truth.

It is no more a "self-evident" truth than Marxist slogans about freedom and equality.

Originally posted by FMF
The Caucasian men who coined the phrase didn't think it was "self-evident" enough for it to apply to Negro men and they probably didn't have Caucasian women in mind either ~ when did the latter get a right to vote that was equal to men? 1920?

And babies don't vote at all.

All men are created equal.

I don't see why you're having difficulty with this. Are you claiming that Caucasian men have rights that simply don't apply to non-Caucasian men or women? How "white" of you. I'm saying that all men ARE created equal, despite some that act in their own self-perceived self-interest in convincing others that they somehow are of a special class that has some sort of "divine right of kings". All men are created equal, despite those who say they are not. Simply because those who say they're not are wrong.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
[b]No it is not.
Catch 22 refers to paradoxical situations
For example;

Those aren't paradoxical situations.

"banks only lending money to people who have money."

That's business. Only an idiot "lends" money to someone that can't pay it back. Giving money to someone that can't pay it back is called welfare. Or charity. Even grants aren't made without the prospect of a return in revenue and an increase in capital business gains.

"employers only taking on people with experience."

Again that's business. Only qualified applicants need apply. Anyone who has ever been in business for themselves understands that, and most small businesses operate on a narrow budget. No one hires anyone to do a job if they are unqualified to do it and earn their wages.

"god proving his existence only to people who already believe in him."

God proves His existence to everyone. Believing is how one knows Him.

"being too unfit to exercise."

That's just false!

Originally posted by Suzianne
And they ALL have certain rights, simply by being a human being. This should be clear.

I agree with you that all human beings should have certain rights. But that does not make a slogan like "All men are created equal" true in a "self-evident" way. In the real world, they are all different and unequal at birth and throughout their lives, and the aspiration and idealism of "All men are created equal" simply has no impact on reality for most human beings.

Originally posted by FMF
How so? There is no evidence to support this and almost unlimited evidence that proves the contrary.

"All men are created equal" is a political belief and not a "self-evident" truth.

It is no more a "self-evident" truth than Marxist slogans about freedom and equality.

Really? And exactly who belongs to this "privileged" class? You?

Yeah, that's my point.