Clarifying Palestine Issue

@rajk999 said
This is why the international community do not bat an eyelid when Palestinians are getting clobbered and losing their land. The Jews are fighting an evil force, that the world secretly wants removed.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/15/turkeys-erdogan-calls-israel-terror-state-as-he-condemns-gaza-hospital-raid

Israel faced an unprecedented wave of international condemnation after its troops entered the Shifa hospital complex in Gaza, while the UN and aid agencies expressed concern about the impact of the raid on staff and patients.

The scale and virulence of the global condemnation from Arab and western governments raised questions about how much longer Israel can continue with its offensive in the face of waning international support.

@vivify said
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/15/turkeys-erdogan-calls-israel-terror-state-as-he-condemns-gaza-hospital-raid

Israel faced an unprecedented wave of international condemnation after its troops entered the Shifa hospital complex in Gaza, while the UN and aid agencies expressed concern about the impact of the raid on staff and patients.

The scale and viru ...[text shortened]... h longer Israel can continue with its offensive in the face of waning international support.

Is this a news report? We get the news.😗
Could it be possible that there will be another news report saying that Israel is not a terror state. Do we just get to pick one.?

@rajk999 said
A people who follow no law, no statutory law, no common law, no law of decency, who proceed to attack civilians in the most horrific manner killing women and children, raping and pillaging, kidnapping and doing all manner of evil to civilians ... are they in your opinion entitled to have the country responding to these attacks, follow these Geneva conventions, International Law or other UN guidelines?

Hamas is not Palestine. The actions of radicals don't represent the people as a whole. You can't oppress innocent civilians, including women and children, because of a terrorist group running a country.

I do agree with you that when it comes to defending your own citizens and countrymen, the importance of rules of war pale in comparison to their deaths.

However:

Israel stealing land from Palestinians has nothing to do with that. Israel was evicting people from their homes long before October 7th. Using your own logic about following international law: was Hamas justified in attacking Israel for violently removing Palestinians from their homes, on Palestinian land? Does Israel have the right to do what Hamas did if they ever forced Israelis out of their homes, *on Israeli land*?

@vivify said
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/15/turkeys-erdogan-calls-israel-terror-state-as-he-condemns-gaza-hospital-raid

Israel faced an unprecedented wave of international condemnation after its troops entered the Shifa hospital complex in Gaza, while the UN and aid agencies expressed concern about the impact of the raid on staff and patients.

The scale and viru ...[text shortened]... h longer Israel can continue with its offensive in the face of waning international support.

To be honest and I could be wrong, I never got the impression that Israel gives two hoots about what the international community says.

When Hamas attacked on Oct 7th, or at any time before in their hundreds of terrorist attacks over the decades, and all the comments were " .. we condemn Hamas ... that was a horrific attack .... All of that is diplomatic mumbo jumbo that has no real value. Did any of that help Israel to solve their problem with terrorism?

Israel went ahead and immediately put a plan into place to solve their problem, and they will see it to the bitter end , again without regard to what the BS diplomatic comments are.

Israel's only concern is fixing the problem.

@vivify said
Hamas is not Palestine. The actions of radicals don't represent the people as a whole. You can't oppress innocent civilians, including women and children, because of a terrorist group running a country.

I do agree with you that when it comes to defending your own citizens and countrymen, the importance of rules of war pale in comparison to their deaths.

However:
...[text shortened]... e the right to do what Hamas did if they ever forced Israelis out of their homes, *on Israeli land*?

A terrorist group cannot commit horrific acts of terrorism and run and hide among civilian population unless that civilian population is assisting them to hide, in which case the civilian population is complicit in their crimes. So those civilians are not innocent and in a court of law any lawyer can put forward a case for Hamas performing the wishes of the population. Thats easy to prove.

As for the stealing land business, you gave two examples and the story makes sense, when told fully. The Bedouins are claiming that because they lived in the desert for decades the land is theirs and they can do whatever they want. Thats nonsense. The other in East Jerusalem is a Palestinian squatting in a house belonging to a Jew and did not want to leave. Do you have other examples?

@rajk999 said
A terrorist group cannot commit horrific acts of terrorism and run and hide among civilian population unless that civilian population is assisting them to hide

So you don't think "horrific" terrorists could be forcing civilians to comply?

The Bedouins are claiming that because they lived in the desert for decades the land is theirs and they can do whatever they want. Thats nonsense.

Bedouins have there since the 14th century; their numbers significantly increased since 1948. Here's a pro-Israel website that expalins:

https://www.beinharimtours.com/bedouins-in-israel/

The other in East Jerusalem is a Palestinian squatting in a house belonging to a Jew and did not want to leave. Do you have other examples?

It's not just one couple. Over 290 Palestinian structures (meaning homes, stores, etc.) have been demolished in the by Israel in the West Bank, which is Palestinian territory:

https://www.ochaopt.org/content/west-bank-demolitions-and-displacement-january-march-2023

@vivify said
So you don't think "horrific" terrorists could be forcing civilians to comply?

The Bedouins are claiming that because they lived in the desert for decades the land is theirs and they can do whatever they want. Thats nonsense.

Bedouins have there since the 14th century; their numbers significantly increased since 1948. Here's a pro-Israel website that expa ...[text shortened]... ritory:

https://www.ochaopt.org/content/west-bank-demolitions-and-displacement-january-march-2023

Hamas can force civilians to comply but that is their problem. They put Hamas there. Its their responsibility to move them. Let them figure out how. But isntead of doing that they dance in the streets when Jews are killed. So something is sadly wrong with your excuses.

Bedouins are squatters, and settlements were built for them to regularize them so they wont be all over the place.

The demolished homes story ... I know that Israel demolish homes of terrorists and, but your article did not state the reason for these demolitions. I will read up some more on it.

@vivify said
It uses the word "territory" which is the same thing.

no, neither convention addresses land, territory or anything similar.

They have to do with the treatment of people…🙄

@rajk999 said

Ok .. did some more checking into this West Bank demolition of schools. Have a look at this report from an independent body on the curriculum in schools in West Bank and Gaza.

chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.impact-se.org/wp-content/uploads/PA-Reports_-Updated-Selected-Examples_May-2021.pdf

I agree with Israel. Demolish those schools.

@mott-the-hoople said
no, neither convention addresses land, territory or anything similar.

They have to do with the treatment of people…🙄

Article 49 from the 1949 Geneva Convention:

"Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive."

Israel evicting Palestinians from their territory is a war crime.

@rajk999 said
To be honest and I could be wrong, I never got the impression that Israel gives two hoots about what the international community says.

When Hamas attacked on Oct 7th, or at any time before in their hundreds of terrorist attacks over the decades, and all the comments were " .. we condemn Hamas ... that was a horrific attack .... All of that is diplomatic mumbo j ...[text shortened]... thout regard to what the BS diplomatic comments are.

Israel's only concern is fixing the problem.

This comment bears out one of my long-stated views, that what people 'think' is generally not relevant to what someone is doing, assuming the doing is solidly proper and honest in the eyes of the doer.
So if Israel, in their eyes, is trying to save their country and all that goes with it, why would they care what some other entity thinks about what they are doing?

@rajk999 said
A terrorist group cannot commit horrific acts of terrorism and run and hide among civilian population unless that civilian population is assisting them to hide, in which case the civilian population is complicit in their crimes. So those civilians are not innocent and in a court of law any lawyer can put forward a case for Hamas performing the wishes of the population. That ...[text shortened]... an squatting in a house belonging to a Jew and did not want to leave. Do you have other examples?

The Bedouins occupying the same land for many many years, however, may bring in a question of 'adverse possession', and the common law that we all know might indeed make a case for vesting them with ownership.
An interesting case indeed.

https://www.justia.com/real-estate/home-ownership/owning-a-home/adverse-possession/

@vivify said
Article 49 from the 1949 Geneva Convention:

"Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive."

Israel evicting Palestinians from their territory is a war crime.

What is their territory? You may have stated it but please clarify simply. Thank you. I am not being ugly, I just do not get it. Last i heard the arabs just dictated some such, but I just don't see a good clarification on the internet. Is it because of the very nature of the unsettled agreement that it even exists?

@averagejoe1 said
This comment bears out one of my long-stated views, that what people 'think' is generally not relevant to what someone is doing, assuming the doing is solidly proper and honest in the eyes of the doer.
So if Israel, in their eyes, is trying to save their country and all that goes with it, why would they care what some other entity thinks about what they are doing?

No they dont care about public opinion. They have only one goal and that is survival. If Hamas lives on after this battle then their survival is threatened. So their first order of business is to put an end to Hamas.

Next would be to damage/cripple all those who supported Hamas, and sadly that means the people of Gaza, Hezbollah and Iran.

In fact I would be surprised if they even listen to calls from the US to end the destruction of Gaza.

@vivify said
Article 49 from the 1949 Geneva Convention:

"Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive."

Israel evicting Palestinians from their territory is a war crime.

why did you only post PART of article 49 of the fourth geveva convention?
Here it is in its entirety'''

"ART. 49. — Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as
deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the
territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country,
occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive.
Nevertheless, the Occupying Power may undertake total or
partial evacuation of a given area if the security of the population or
imperative military reasons so demand. Such evacuations may not
involve the displacement of protected persons outside the bounds of
the occupied territory except when for material reasons it is
impossible to avoid such displacement. Persons thus evacuated shall
be transferred back to their homes as soon as hostilities in the area
in question have ceased.
The Occupying Power undertaking such transfers or evacuations
shall ensure, to the greatest practicable extent, that proper
accommodation is provided to receive the protected persons, that
the removals are effected in satisfactory conditions of hygiene,
health, safety and nutrition, and that members of the same family
are not separated.
The Protecting Power shall be informed of any transfers and
evacuations as soon as they have taken place.
The Occupying Power shall not detain protected persons in an
area particularly exposed to the dangers of war unless the security
of the population or imperative military reasons so demand.
The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its
own civilian population into the territory it occupies"

And palestinians are not a state...none of the conventions apply to them.