Only Chess
06 Mar 08
07 Mar 08
Originally posted by HindsteinI think the big problem was that Russ closed the mods down before the work was finished. I messaged Gate a few days back, and he said "Cludi wasn't proven to be cheating, we never got to finish the work required".
The analogy of the child molester is a good one as it does provoke thought. When the safety of children is in jeopardy, swift actions have to be taken to prevent the unthinkable from happening. However, for the sake of argument, consider the repercussions of a false positive situation....
There have been many cases of false accusations against teacher ...[text shortened]... computer-like moves is not the same as proof of cheating) should always be treated as innocent.
I think the upset was more about Cludi may be using an engine than Cludi is cheating. Sad thing is it all went public, and just like any story the more you hear it the more it changes until everyone thinks Cludi was a proven cheat. He was not proven to have cheated, the work wasn't finished.
P-
07 Mar 08
Originally posted by no1marauderI think the fact that Cludi hasn't outright claimed innocence in this case speaks volumes! I'm very sad to see all this controversy, I have always held Cludi in the absolute highest regard!! If he was totally innocent, i'm pretty sure he'd have said so somewhere. Perhaps i've missed it, but if it was me in this position and i was genuinely innocent i wouldn't hesitate to say so, over and over again if necessary...
I've analyzed all my games here, OTB and a few other sites using Fritz + at least 100 other games. That's about a 1000 games using all kinds of players at all kinds of ratings.
There's no doubt that 86.9% of your moves being one of Fritz's first three choices IS a high number. I'd have to see the actual data to determine whether it was "ov ...[text shortened]... not, drawn the conclusion that Cludi is beyond a reasonable doubt an engine cheat.
07 Mar 08
Looking through the games of some of the players recently banned on this site I'm starting to question the decision of the moderators here. I have some (about a year) of experience working in engine use detection in CC and so I'm probably not as experienced as the paid professionals on this site but I have real doubts about both Cludi, ih8sens, and a few others. Anyways, as I mentioned, I'm now leaving the site, it's just not fun here.
07 Mar 08
Originally posted by Richardt HansenWhy would we trust anybody making accusations and insinuations? Why would we trust anyone who runs to their internet blog to bleat on about other players where it isn't moderated, and knowing that such posts in these forums are deleted and the poster could face a ban.
@David Tebb:
If you are interested I would be happy to sent you an private message with my post - it's actually no accusation towards you - just my thoughts of the background for your accusations against Cludi. I have no idea why my post was removed ......
_____________
no1maurauder your amazing you think that I "must be deranged to believe ...[text shortened]... elf why you blindly trust someone making accusations without the proper documentation .....
Btw, I take timeouts too 😀
07 Mar 08
Originally posted by no1marauderI don't think that it is absurd.
That's absurd. Someone is either cheating or they are not. Why should we assume they are not if a top player here who was a former member of the Game Mod team says he has analysis that shows he is cheating? Esp. when any opportunity for the Game Mods to reach a final decision is frustrated by the actions of the Site Admins? To use your analogy, we don't ...[text shortened]... ing the whole issue to light. I say kudos to him and hope he is part of any Game Mod team.
It all depends on your point of view. Of course, someone is either cheating, or they are not. My point of view is that the masses (ie me and the many others here who have no knowledge of what constitutes cheating or who would not be able to spot a cheater if one painted themselves purple and danced naked in front of them) should not be acting as judge and jury in the forums or even taking sides in this Tebb vs Cludi battle.
I chose not to respond to the many posts to the tune of "David Tebb has some evidence and he is rated 2300 so he must be right". There is so much wrong with this sentiment - a numpty like myself offering to side with one person he has not met or knows from Adam in an argument about another person that he also doesn't know. It really doesn't make any sense at all. This sort of thing needs to be left to those who know what they are doing - and I include you in this no1 as your knowledge in this matter far exceeds mine.
Anyway, I digress. To get back to responding to your post, I assume that players are not cheating because I know no better. So many others here are quoting David Tebb's analysis freely (and many wrongly quoting it as proof) but I bet that none of them have seen it, or would know what to do with the analysis if they did. I have not seen any analysis, not would I understand it, and so as a result I am unqualified to demand any action and so I (and everyone else who is in my position) should assume that all are innocent until they are proven guilty by those who know.
Now, I read Gatecrasher's posts here too, and the fact that the trial has been adjourned is perhaps unfortunate, but too many people here are too quick to collect their pitchforks and light their torches when something happens that they don't understand. I, however, am more than happy to put my faith in Russ that he would have a similar (and perhaps more efficient) system in place in time and I was certainly prepared to wait for this to happen. Russ' actions, or rather inaction has angered many here but if only people had been a little more patient and put a little more faith in the admins, who not only have given us this superb website to play chess on, but also gave us the mod team to begin with.
Perhaps Russ' mistake was disbanding the game mods and maybe it would have been sufficient to prevent Cludi from continuing his role as one. But he didn't. Even under those current circumstances, I disagree that David Tebb's actions were justified. It is not necessary for "Johnny Numpty" to know who is being investigated as this very situation of rumour and side taking is the logical result. I think that David's actions (and Tal's too) have been rather juvenile, allowing this to become public knowledge - and this all should remain behind the closed doors of those strong enough to understand it.
... Although I'd like note that this has had me humming the Kaiser Chiefs song "The Angry Mob" all week....
07 Mar 08
Originally posted by scamyumNo one here is paid.
Looking through the games of some of the players recently banned on this site I'm starting to question the decision of the moderators here. I have some (about a year) of experience working in engine use detection in CC and so I'm probably not as experienced as the paid professionals on this site but I have real doubts about both Cludi, ih8sens, and a few others. Anyways, as I mentioned, I'm now leaving the site, it's just not fun here.
Bye bye.
P-
07 Mar 08
Originally posted by scamyumThe moderators didn't reach a decision regarding cludi, so it doesn't make sense to include him in your list.
Looking through the games of some of the players recently banned on this site I'm starting to question the decision of the moderators here. I have some (about a year) of experience working in engine use detection in CC and so I'm probably not as experienced as the paid professionals on this site but I have real doubts about both Cludi, ih8sens, and a few others.
07 Mar 08
Originally posted by MarinkatombCludi did claim his innocence on his blog (near the bottom of his posting). I don't know whether he also did so on RHP, but he at least made the claim on his blog. Now, whether people choose to believe him is an entirely different matter, but at least he made the claim.
I think the fact that Cludi hasn't outright claimed innocence in this case speaks volumes! I'm very sad to see all this controversy, I have always held Cludi in the absolute highest regard!! If he was totally innocent, i'm pretty sure he'd have said so somewhere. Perhaps i've missed it, but if it was me in this position and i was genuinely innocent i wouldn't hesitate to say so, over and over again if necessary...
07 Mar 08
One of the problems with making the accusations of cheating secret is that one can only speculate what enraged Mr. Tebb. For instance, I wonder if it is possible that someone like Cludi used an engine for only certain key moves. It would give him the benefit of non-human like moves when he needed them most, but since he was only using it once in a while his games would not have a ridiculously high correclation to Fritz or some other engine. Certainly I am not talented enough to know what moves are too good to be real (all I know is that 100% of these guys legitimate moves are too good to be mine), but I imagine a guy like Mr. Tebb might be able to look at a guys games and say at certain junctures that "humans just don't think like that" If that happens a several times in a row I could see where a guy like Tebb would feel the games are being decided by an engine. Does this make sense?
07 Mar 08
Originally posted by myteamtrulystinksI seem to remember that Mr. Tebb mentioned his analysis was enough to make him suspicious. I don't remember him saying that he was enraged. Tone down the rhetoric, please.
One of the problems with making the accusations of cheating secret is that one can only speculate what enraged Mr. Tebb. For instance, I wonder if it is possible that someone like Cludi used an engine for only certain key moves. It would give him the benefit of non-human like moves when he needed them most, but since he was only using it once in ...[text shortened]... e a guy like Tebb would feel the games are being decided by an engine. Does this make sense?