Only Chess
24 Jan 05
13 Apr 05
9 edits
Originally posted by krpvksprvhow about:
As others have seen, my similar concern with 17... 0-0-0 is 18. Rf4-Kb8 19. Qf3 which looks favorable for White.
17... 0-0-0 18. Rf4 ... we do need to know where we are going.
a fantasy:
17... 0-0-0 18. Rf4 Nxh5 19 Rxf7 Qg5+ 20 Kb1 Rhf8 21 Rxf8 Rxf8 22 Qa3 Rxf2 23 Qxa7
perhaps ironman would play:
17... 0-0-0 18. Qf3
13 Apr 05
Originally posted by flexmoreA fantasy:
how about:
17... 0-0-0 18. Rf4 ... we do need to know where we are going.
a fantasy:
17... 0-0-0 18. Rf4 Nxh5 19 Rxf7 Qg5+ 20 Kb1 Rhf8 21 Rxf8 Rxf8 22 Qa3 Rxf2 23 Qxa7
perhaps ironman would play:
17... 0-0-0 18. Qf3
Instead of 21. Rxf8, 21.Qa3! is stronger for White.
13 Apr 05
Originally posted by krpvksprvMaybe, but if you exchange it leads to doubled a-file pawns.
A fantasy:
Instead of 21. Rxf8, 21.Qa3! is stronger for White.
It strikes me, that the best you can expect out of a situation like a committee game is going to be a draw. There's no room for individualism.
14 Apr 05
Originally posted by buffalobillWho said it's a draw? Not because there are equal Rooks and number of pawns it becomes a draw. If you know the continuation for a draw, then we would appreciate if you can show us, please. Furthermore, kindly, demonstrate also what Black will do after 17...0-0-0; 18. Rf4 and don't just criticize my analysis with no back ups. I try to help show possible continuations. Up to this point, with White's 17. Ne5, Black has not equalized. The Gligoric line 11. Rh4!? is strong, and less analyzed, so maybe the reason for Ironman31's choice. Gligoric vs. Petrosian (ct 1959) continued with 16...gf6; 17. Qd2 - Nb6; 18. Qa5 - Qd6; 19. Rd3 - Qd5; 20. Qa3 - Nc4; 21. Qb4 - Nd6; 22. b3 - a5; 23. Qd2-a4; 24. c4 - ab3; 25. ab5 - Qa5; 26. Qa5 -Ra5; 27. Nd2 - Ke7, etc. ans White went on to win in 57 moves.
Maybe, but if you exchange it leads to doubled a-file pawns.
It strikes me, that the best you can expect out of a situation like a committee game is going to be a draw. There's no room for individualism.
On the other hand, doubled pawns are not necessarily a weakness. Books may say that, but experience it is ultimately understanding pawn structure at each particular position. Here, it doesn't stay doubled for long. Rather Black's f6 going to e5 via pawn capture exerts central influence preventing Rd1-d4 which is deadly once it manuevers to the Kingside. In that continuation, here are more details:
17...Nd7 18.Rg4- Ne5; 19. de5 - 0-0; 20 Qg3- f6; 21. Rg6- fe5!; 22.Rh6 -Rf5; 23.Qg6-Qg5 ch; 24 Qg5 -Rg5; 25. Re6-Rg2; 26. Re5-Rf2; 27. Rd7 - Raf8!; 28. Ree7-Rg2!...and Black has reached a better position.
Another,
17...Nd7 18.Rg4- Ne5; 19. de5 - 0-0; 20 Qg3- f6; 21. ef6 -Rf6; 22. Re1-Raf8; 23. f3 -Rf5; 24. Qh2 - Qf7; 25. Rh4 and Black is fighting!
With 17...0-0-0; 18. Rf4 - Rhf8; 19. Qf3-Qc7 (20. ...c5??; 21. dc5 - Rd1; 22. Qd1 - Rd8 (22...Nd5?; 23. Ra4 - Kb8; 24. c6!) 23. Qe2 - Rd5; 24. Rc4 - Rc5; 25. Rc5 -Qc5; 26. Nf7 - Qd5; 27. c4 - Qd7; 28. Ne5 - Qd4; 29. g3-Qe4; 30. Qe4 - Ne4; 31. Ng4 with White a pawn up and an instructive endgame) 20. Rd3 - Qa5; 21. Qd1 - Qa2; 22.Ra3 - Qd5; 24. c4 - Qg2; 25. Ra7 -Qg5; 26. Qd2! and White is winning!
With this lines shown, I'm sure the "committee" can go on further. So let's provide more concrete continuations to find good lines for Black and not just get excerpts from chess books. Actual vs. Myth.
14 Apr 05
O-O-O ?... you jest!
Look at this game (and there are a couple of others posted, and all castled Q-side to a similar end.)
Game 783257
Our exact position starts at 17w
At present black has nothing queenside and cannot possible defend the King there...check the games finish, where are blacks pieces?
14 Apr 05
Originally posted by xsThanks for this post. 20...Kb8 would probably be a better reply instead of 20...Nh5...just to prolong the agony. But, like in this game 20...0-0-0 leads to nowhere. Anyways, I've shared my thoughts already, I'll just watch what happens next. If Black still plays 20...0-0-0. Nice exchange of ideas with everyone. See ya.
O-O-O ?... you jest!
Look at this game (and there are a couple of others posted, and all castled Q-side to a similar end.)
Game 783257
Our exact position starts at 17w
At present black has nothing queenside and cannot possible defend the King there...check the games finish, where are blacks pieces?
14 Apr 05
Originally posted by xs19...Qe7d7 was weak though.
O-O-O ?... you jest!
Look at this game (and there are a couple of others posted, and all castled Q-side to a similar end.)
Game 783257
Our exact position starts at 17w
At present black has nothing queenside and cannot possible defend the King there...check the games finish, where are blacks pieces?
There's two games at Chessgames.com with this position, both ended in draws castling either side:
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1322466
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1022708
14 Apr 05
Originally posted by xs0-0-0 is a standard theoretical move in the position. The errors came later.
O-O-O ?... you jest!
Look at this game (and there are a couple of others posted, and all castled Q-side to a similar end.)
Game 783257
Our exact position starts at 17w
At present black has nothing queenside and cannot possible defend the King there...check the games finish, where are blacks pieces?
14 Apr 05
Originally posted by OsseLearning the theoretical moves of any particular opening is well and fine. But you must keep in mind the elements of good chess position and try to reach a solid position through careful analysis.
0-0-0 is a standard theoretical move in the position. The errors came later.
In this instance, 0-0-0 will not lead to a solid position.
Note: I made a case for getting off this line very early in this thread (and the game), and here we are still following it into oblivion.
14 Apr 05
Originally posted by flexmoreHas anyone suggested Nd5? It seems like that's a natural spot for the Knight, and keeps the rook off f4. Maybe I'm missing something - is there something wrong with that move?
the position:Game 868388
we are black and need to move.
[fen]r3k2r/pp2qpp1/2p1pn1p/4N2P/3P3R/3Q4/PPP2PP1/2KR4 b qk - 1 17[/fen]
suggestions so far for our 17th move: Nd7, castling kingside, and queenside.
please discuss your reasons when suggesting a move for us to consider 🙂
voting will happen soon in a separate thread.
15 Apr 05
Originally posted by richjohnsonif we play Nd5 then ironman can play c4 ... this pushes our knight away .... not neccessarily a problem except we do not go anywhere special.
Has anyone suggested Nd5? It seems like that's a natural spot for the Knight, and keeps the rook off f4. Maybe I'm missing something - is there something wrong with that move?
sometimes Nb6 would be very good because when white plays c5 we go back to d5 - permanently ....
but here if we play 17 ... Nd5 18 c4 Nb6 then ironman can play a4 and a5 taking the whole board.
so at best we really just end up going back to f6 with ironman taking over the entire board with his pawns.
(and, perhaps more importantly, as ragnorak says - on f6 our knight covers g4)
15 Apr 05
Just a few thoughts. Black's main problem is connecting the rooks which can be accomplished by caslting either king- or queenside. The positional advantage of White comes from:
1)The knight at e5 (controls much of the battlefield)
2)The control of the center
3)Better development
Few things:
An exchange of the knights will lead to further pressure and problems.
Our concern should be the defense of the pawn at g7, which obviously will be the target of White's further play.
A possible plan is castling kingside protecting the pawn with the king and aiming our knight at d5. This will expose our king to some attack bu it is worth the try.