Originally posted by Mephisto2...Re8 Bxd4 looks pretty devastating to me. (Bg5+ Kc1.)
This is the position I have been looking at for a while. Black has two very different options: a) fighting to keep the knight with c5 - in my opinion at the cost of losing it anyway in a fully defensive mode, or b) trying to generate some counterplay with Re8, accepting the loss of the knight, but benefiting from white's undefended kingside pawns and white e or not. Playing c5 is the more obvious action. I think Re8 offers more chances of survival.
I think Black plays c5.
I'm not sure that dxc is a great move, but I think it's what white will play followed by Mephisto's ...Kc7 and black is hoping for
Qxd4 or cxb with a won game for black.
Instead of cxb white plays Na3 with unclear complications.
After 17 ... Re8 18.Bxd4, black would play Qg6, not Bg4+. The white queen has to move, and now black has three active pieces available. Whit is stillbetter, but has plenty of ways to go wrong in blacks counter initiative.
One line to think about after 17. ... c5, and hopefully for for black to improve on if he wants to save the knight is:
18.dxc6 Kc7 19.Na3 bxc6 20.Ke1 Rd8 21.Rd1 c5 22.Nb5+ Kb7 23.Nxd4 cxd4 24.Qe4+ Kc7 25.Ba5+ should win.
Originally posted by Mephisto2It'll be interesting to see which way black goes.
After 17 ... Re8 18.Bxd4, black would play Qg6, not Bg4+. The white queen has to move, and now black has three active pieces available. Whit is stillbetter, but has plenty of ways to go wrong in blacks counter initiative.
One line to think about after 17. ... c5, and hopefully for for black to improve on if he wants to save the knight is:
18.dxc6 Kc7 19.Na3 bxc6 20.Ke1 Rd8 21.Rd1 c5 22.Nb5+ Kb7 23.Nxd4 cxd4 24.Qe4+ Kc7 25.Ba5+ should win.
Qg6 looks strong. Qg3 doesn't work.
Maybe Bxd4 was the wrong move? Maybe we want Qxd4 or a different Queen move?
What I don't understand is why give up the Knight now and not a couple of moves ago when black could have castled and brought the other Rook into play?
I think we'll see c5. But, Re8 may be a better move.
It seems like Black has the initiative.
And I agree with you, I don't like White's exposed King position. I haven't liked it for a while.
Originally posted by Red NightDespite all the above, white is still strong favorite in this position.
It'll be interesting to see which way black goes.
Qg6 looks strong. Qg3 doesn't work.
Maybe Bxd4 was the wrong move? Maybe we want Qxd4 or a different Queen move?
What I don't understand is why give up the Knight now and not a couple of moves ago when black could have castled and brought the other Rook into play?
I think we'll see c5. B ...[text shortened]... ee with you, I don't like White's exposed King position. I haven't liked it for a while.
Originally posted by bosintangBg4+ ?? I looked at that briefly and didn't think much of it.
[fen]r2k3r/ppp2ppp/5q2/3P4/2Bn2b1/2B1Q3/PP3PPP/RN1K4 w - - 0 1[/fen]
1. c4 e6 2. e4 d5 3. exd5 exd5 4. Nf3 Nf6 5. Qb3 Nc6
6. cxd5 Nxd5 7. Bc4 Qe7+ 8. Kd1 Nf4 9. Re1 Ne6 10. d4 Qd6
11. d5 Be7 12. Bd2 Scd4 13. Nxd4 Nxd4 14. Qc3 Qf6 15. Rxe7 Kxe7
16. Qe3+ Kd8 17. Bc3 Bg4+
f3 seems like the obvious response.
Then what?
Bxf3+, gxf3, Qxf3+, Qxf3, Nxf3, Bxg7, R-g8, B-?, Nxh2 and black takes his chances with the extra king side pawns?
He might win it. He's got a rook and two pawns for two bishops.
I don't like 18.f3 because black wants to get extra compensation for the loss of a piece. 18. ... Bxf3+ 19.gxf3 Qxf3+ 20.Qxf3 Nxf3 21.Be2 (is better than Bxg7) Ng1 (Nxh2? Be5!) and probably Bg4 is a good move. I still prefer white, but it is not that clear wether the knight can be trapped or not. If not, then black may have enough compensation.
The alternative moves are Kd2 and Kc1. I would go for 18.Kc1. For instance Re8 19.Bxd4 Qg6 20.Qd2 and white has won the knight without having his kingside pawns wrecked or even immediately attacked. If instead, white plays 18.Kd2, then he must find another square for the queen after Re8, which is not that obvious and black has a counter initiative going. Or he must take with the queen, for instance 18.Kd2 Re8 19.Qxd4 Qh6+ 20.Kc2 Qg6+ 21.Bd3 Bf5 and white may still be better, but his kingside is open for attack.
So, I prefer 18.Kc1.
Originally posted by Mephisto2I agree, I think white has to play Kc1.
I don't like 18.f3 because black wants to get extra compensation for the loss of a piece. 18. ... Bxf3+ 19.gxf3 Qxf3+ 20.Qxf3 Nxf3 21.Be2 (is better than Bxg7) Ng1 (Nxh2? Be5!) and probably Bg4 is a good move. I still prefer white, but it is not that clear wether the knight can be trapped or not. If not, then black may have enough compensation.
The alte ...[text shortened]... Bf5 and white may still be better, but his kingside is open for attack.
So, I prefer 18.Kc1.
In the f3 version, if Black can get his rook onto white's first rank, he can tie up 3 white pieces while white struggles to get his rook out.
I'm surprised no one mentioned Bg4+. It goes to show you that you can look at a move and reject it without playing through the sequence and be wrong.
Black has now given up the knight, I think. c5 wouldn't be so good, because after dxc e.p. Qxc, the withe queen would take the knight with check while protecting the bishop on c4. But it is an option.
There are several other moves to choose from (Qg6, Bh5, Bf5, Bd7 and what not) but only one move that develops immediately: Re8. That would be my choice to try and create counterplay.
edit: it is clear that Nf5?? fails on Bxf6+.
Thank you, bosintang, for your help during my absence. It is much appreciated!
1. c4 e6 2. e4 d5 3. exd5 exd5 4. Nf3 Nf6 5. Qb3 Nc6
6. cxd5 Nxd5 7. Bc4 Qe7+ 8. Kd1 Nf4 9. Re1 Ne6 10. d4 Qd6
11. d5 Be7 12. Bd2 Scd4 13. Nxd4 Nxd4 14. Qc3 Qf6 15. Rxe7 Kxe7
16. Qe3+ Kd8 17. Bc3 Bg4+ 18. Kc1 Resigned 1-0
I liked 18...Ne2+. I'm surprised at blacks early resignation.
Fabian: Whats the info on this game (players, date. etc.)? Great job with this. I didn't participate much but I enjoyed following it. I hope you (or someone else) does another game. I'd volunteer to do it if my schedule was more stable.