A Greater Work than Creation

@galveston75

Just a few simple questions that need only simple answers....

Can Almighty God die? Yes or no....

No.
But I already said that I could not produce a quote saying exactly that.

However, God obtained the church through His own blood.(Acts 20:28)
And that must mean that God had to be in a form in which God was involved in death. (Acts 20:28).

I in turn ask YOU. Is there more than ONE "the First and the Last"?

Jehovah God says He is the First and the Last in (Isaiah 44:6; 48:12). Yet Jesus Christ in resurrection and glorification said He was the First and the Last Who became DEAD.

"And when I [John] saw Him [the glorified Christ] I fell at His feet as dead;

and He placed His right hand upon me, saying, Do not fear; I am the First and the Last and the living One; and I became dead, and behold, I am living forever and ever;

and I have the keys of death and of Hades." (Rev. 1:17,18)

Now either:
1.) There is more than one First and more than one Last.

Or

2.) There is One the First and the Last but He is wrong to tell us that He "became dead".

If neither of those is true then we have a mystery. Jehovah the First and the Last BECAME DEAD somehow, though it never says "God died".

Jehovah is the ONLY "the First and the only "the Last".

"Thus says Jehovah the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts, I am the First and I am the Last,

And apart from Me there is no God ..." (Isaiah 44:6)

So do you believe in the Son of God?

"Do not fear, I am the First and the Last and the living One; AND I BECAME DEAD, and behold I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of Hades." (Rev. 1:17b,18)

Jehovah, the First and the Last obtained the church through His own blood (Acts 20:28).

@galveston75

If yes did he die as a man here on earth? Yes or no...

Jesus died as a man on the earth.

Jehovah God says He is "the First and the Last".
Jesus Christ said He is the First and the Last, the living One, WHO BECAME DEAD.

That much I know. So though I cannot produce a verse saying "God died" I can produce "Christ, the mystery of God" (Col. 2:2) .

And well so, because He is the First and the Last ... who became dead.

Behold, He lives now forever and ever and has the keys of death and of Hades.

Yes or No ?

If he did, who resurrected him? A name would be fine here...

What does the Bible say? For one it says God raised Him.

" ... in the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified and whom God has raised from the dead, ..." (Acts 4:10)

Also -

"The God of our fathers has raised Jesus, whom you slew by hanging Him on a tree." (Acts 5:30)

God is "the First and the Last" and "the First and the Last ... became dead ...". The "God of our fathers" was Jehovah Who said.

"Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel whom I called; I am He; I am the First, I am the Last. Indeed My hand laid the foundation of the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens." (Isaiah 48:12,13a)

It is truly Wonderful. It is a greater work than the work of creation.

It also says the Father raised Him. (John 5:21)

We received the Spirit of Christ who is Christ and Who is "the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead." (Rom. 8:11)

If you RECEIVE Christ you will know that you received God. You received Christ and simultaneously you received "the Spirit of the One Who raised Jesus from the dead."

He is one Wonderful Triune God.

Who prayed to Almighty God in heaven before his death?

Jesus prayed and still intercedes for the saints to the Father.

But wonderfully Jesus Christ is both IN the Christians Rom. 8:9

"But if Christ is in you ..." (v.9)

And wonderfully also at the right hand of God interceding for the believers (Rom. 8:34)

"Who is he who condemns? It is Christ Jesus who died, and rather, who was raised,

who is also at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us." (v.34)

In your next post you can explain how there is the first "the First" and another, a second "the First".

and if you trust your limited human mind so much, you can explain how after "the Last" there could be a second "the Last".

But if not, excuse us. We will believe that the First and the Last has now the keys of death as the Living One who "became dead".

Some of us have "tasted" that the Lord is good.

@kellyjay said
Sure it could be evidence for anything, but that is the point; it is evidence. Not knowing yet proclaiming something is not true is a bit much without knowledge; knowing something is not possible cannot be done unless something about it is known, or the claim of not being real is only an assertion it is not a truth claim.

You have got this turned upside down in your head .
An absence of evidence is not indicative of the existence of a god . An absence of evidence is not indicative of the non-existence of a god.
An absence of evidence is indicative of an absence of evidence.
You make a claim with no evidence simply because you cannot deal with saying you do not know. I cannot claim to know something where there is no evidence to base that claim upon .
I do not know some things . You do not know some things .
Stop claiming to know things that you do not .

@caissad4

What goes on in your psyche is of no interest to me .

Is this going to be your excuse for evading the question about what is good for me?

I said I was not for genocide or rape.
You said that was good for me.

I think the existence of evil is evidence for God.
Just like the existence of shadows indicates a light source.
Light can exist all by itself. But shadows need light to exist.

The sun as a light source, can exist all by itself. But when its light is blocked you get the existence of shadows.

Evil needs a backdrop of good.
The darkness needs a backdrop of light.

Evil is not a thing that can exist on its own. It exists only as a lack or a deficiency in a good thing. If there is no God what is the backdrop upon which the negation of God's nature would cause evil to show up?

The non-theist should explain this. Go for it. It has to do with what is in your psyche. By arguing that this or that is "good" for me you imply a backround of something that can be negated. By definition nearly, that Goodness as a transcendent real standard is God.

Evil can't exist unless good exists. Evil only makes sense upon a backdrop of Goodness. I think you are providing evidence yourself for a greatest possible Moral Goodness, not fluctuating societies but an eternal, unchanging, ultimate Goodness - God.

@caissad4

You make a claim with no evidence simply because you cannot deal with saying you do not know. I cannot claim to know something where there is no evidence to base that claim upon .

i don't think that is the problem with Christian faith. We can say we have evidence that we are on the right track to believe Jesus was the Son of God.

Maybe I do not have proof in a mathematical sense.
But I have said up front that we have faith. And it is faith with a certain amount of confirming experience. We are on the right track to trust that God is and Christ manifested the God who is.

I think what you want to show is your endless capacity to be skeptical.
I could do that too. I could ask you to prove that the person you call your mother is REALLY your mother.

I assure you that I could cast SOME amount of doubt on anything you might submit as proof.

But maybe she lied to you.
But maybe she was mistaken.
But maybe your father withheld the truth from you.
But maybe a DNA analysis is faulty.
But maybe the hospital made a mistake.
But maybe the doctors made a mistake.
But maybe ..
But maybe ...
But maybe ...

Endlessly, I could cast at least a reasonable doubt on your "proof" that the woman you called your mother was actually your mother.

@sonship said
caissadr,

Singer Bobby Darin was told all his life that the woman who was actually his mother was his SISTER. She told him that. Eventually, he learned the truth. Who he thought was his sister all his life was actually his mother.

You could have been lied to or given mistaken information.

Then you might say that you TRUST that you are on the right track to beli ...[text shortened]... that the scientific method leads human beings to truth. But do so without using circular reasoning.

In this analogy, are you casting yourself as the person who lied to Bobby Darin about his sister? Are you asking cassaid4 to trust you and the story you have to tell her?

@sonship said
@galveston75

Just a few simple questions that need only simple answers....

Can Almighty God die? Yes or no....

No.
But I already said that I could not produce a quote saying exactly that.

However, God obtained the church through His own blood.(Acts 20:28)
And that must mean that God had to be in a form in which God was involved in dea ...[text shortened]... hovah, the First and the Last obtained the church through His own blood (Acts 20:28).

Have you forgotten that the first and last issue was discussed pretty seriously a while back? That's why I don't always answer questions that we've already discussed. It get's old my friend.

@sonship said
@galveston75

Just a few simple questions that need only simple answers....

Can Almighty God die? Yes or no....

No.
But I already said that I could not produce a quote saying exactly that.

However, God obtained the church through His own blood.(Acts 20:28)
And that must mean that God had to be in a form in which God was involved in dea ...[text shortened]... hovah, the First and the Last obtained the church through His own blood (Acts 20:28).

Have you never considered that the term "the first and the last" might just apply to them both? They would have different meanings, but that term is not just meant for one of them. But you have to understand what they are first, right?

Here ya go:

“The Alpha and the Omega” refers to Jehovah God, the Almighty. This term occurs three times in the Bible.​—Revelation 1:8; 21:6; 22:13. *

Why does God call himself “the Alpha and the Omega”?
Alpha and omega are the first and last letters of the alphabet in Greek, the language used to write the part of the Bible commonly called the New Testament, which includes the book of Revelation. The respective positions of these letters in the Greek alphabet are used to illustrate that Jehovah alone is the beginning and the end. (Revelation 21:6) He was Almighty God in the infinite past, and he will continue to be Almighty God forever. He is the only one who is “from everlasting to everlasting.”​—Psalm 90:2.

Who is “the first and the last”?
The Bible applies this term both to Jehovah God and to his Son, Jesus, but with different meanings. Consider two examples.

At Isaiah 44:6, Jehovah says: “I am the first and I am the last. There is no God but me.” Here Jehovah highlights that he is the everlasting true God; besides him, there is no other. (Deuteronomy 4:​35, 39) In this case, then, the expression “the first and the last” has the same meaning as “the Alpha and the Omega.”

Additionally, the term “the First [pro’tos, not alpha] and the Last [e’skha·tos, not omega]” occurs at Revelation 1:​17, 18 and 2:8. In these verses, the context shows that the one referred to died and later returned to life. Thus, these verses cannot refer to God because he has never died. (Habakkuk 1:​12) However, Jesus died and was resurrected. (Acts 3:​13-​15) He was the first human to be resurrected to immortal spirit life in heaven, where he now lives “forever and ever.” (Revelation 1:​18; Colossians 1:​18) Jesus is the one who performs all resurrections thereafter. (John 6:​40, 44) Therefore, he was the last one to be resurrected directly by Jehovah. (Acts 10:40) In this sense, Jesus can properly be called “the First and the Last.”

Does Revelation 22:13 prove that Jesus is “the Alpha and the Omega”?
No. The speaker at Revelation 22:13 is not specifically identified, and there are various speakers in this chapter. Commenting on this section of Revelation, Professor William Barclay wrote: “Things are set down without any apparent order; . . . and it is often very difficult to be sure who is the actual speaker.” (The Revelation of John, Volume 2, Revised Edition, page 223) Thus, “the Alpha and the Omega” at Revelation 22:13 can be identified as the same Person given this title elsewhere in Revelation​—Jehovah God.

@caissad4 said
You have got this turned upside down in your head .
An absence of evidence is not indicative of the existence of a god . An absence of evidence is not indicative of the non-existence of a god.
An absence of evidence is indicative of an absence of evidence.
You make a claim with no evidence simply because you cannot deal with saying you do not know. I cannot claim to know ...[text shortened]... not know some things . You do not know some things .
Stop claiming to know things that you do not .

I have not presented an absence of evidence. I started with the universe and life. I cannot imagine you missing both of those. They are here and all around you. The dispute may occur on what these two things tell us, but don't say I have not offered evidence I have given you two.

The universe appeared out of nothing isn't a valid explanation, can you can offer up an explanation as to why it is here from something other than God, I'll listen to you. It didn't create itself, and it is dated, so it isn't eternal. Saying I don't know how it got here is the real absence so far, an absence of an explanation isn't an argument against something either. It didn't just appear out of nothing; nothing does nothing!

The vast array of life, its complexity and diversity, and everything that had to occur does not lend itself to dumb luck, but something done with intent. Saying you don't know how it got here also is an absence of explanation which is still all you have offered.

@galveston75 said
Thanks...

"Who was with God and was God." So it's being explained by you with this. So when Jesus died, no part of God died? But yet your comment says he is God. Jesus died so if your answer is no he isn't God then that goes against the trinity which says he is God.

The scripture is clear on this point from the book of John.
How many different translations all saying the same thing do you need to see?
John 1 English Standard Version (ESV)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.
The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’” For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.

John 1 King James Version (KJV)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 1 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;
this one was in the beginning with God;
all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened.
In him was life, and the life was the light of men,
and the light in the darkness did shine, and the darkness did not perceive it.
There came a man -- having been sent from God -- whose name [is] John,
this one came for testimony, that he might testify about the Light, that all might believe through him;
that one was not the Light, but -- that he might testify about the Light.
He was the true Light, which doth enlighten every man, coming to the world;
in the world he was, and the world through him was made, and the world did not know him:
to his own things he came, and his own people did not receive him;
but as many as did receive him to them he gave authority to become sons of God -- to those believing in his name,
who -- not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but -- of God were begotten.
And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth.
John doth testify concerning him, and hath cried, saying, `This was he of whom I said, He who after me is coming, hath come before me, for he was before me;'
and out of his fulness did we all receive, and grace over-against grace;
for the law through Moses was given, the grace and the truth through Jesus Christ did come;
God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father -- he did declare.

John 1 J.B. Phillips New Testament (PHILLIPS)
At the beginning God expressed himself. That personal expression, that word, was with God, and was God, and he existed with God from the beginning. All creation took place through him, and none took place without him. In him appeared life and this life was the light of mankind. The light still shines in the darkness and the darkness has never put it out.
A man called John was sent by God as a witness to the light, so that any man who heard his testimony might believe in the light. This man was not himself the light: he was sent simply as a personal witness to that light.
That was the true light which shines upon every man as he comes into the world. He came into the world—the world he had created—and the world failed to recognise him. He came into his own creation, and his own people would not accept him. Yet wherever men did accept him he gave them the power to become sons of God. These were the men who truly believed in him, and their birth depended not on the course of nature nor on any impulse or plan of man, but on God.
So the word of God became a human being and lived among us. We saw his splendour (the splendour as of a father’s only son), full of grace and truth. And it was about him that John stood up and testified, exclaiming: “Here is the one I was speaking about when I said that although he would come after me he would always be in front of me; for he existed before I was born!” Indeed, every one of us has shared in his riches—there is a grace in our lives because of his grace. For while the Law was given by Moses, love and truth came through Jesus Christ. It is true that no one has ever seen God at any time. Yet the divine and only Son, who lives in the closest intimacy with the Father, has made him known.

John 1 1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
In the beginning was that Word, and that Word was with God, and that Word was God.
This same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by it, and without it was made nothing that was made.
In it was life, and that life was the light of men.
And that light shineth in the wilderness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not.
¶ There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
This same came for a witness, to bear witness of that light, that all men through him might believe.
He was not that light, but was sent to bear witness of that light.
This was that true light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
He was in the world, and the world was made by him: and the world knew him not.
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
But as many as received him, to them he gave prerogative to be the sons of God, even to them that believe in his Name,
Which are born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
And that Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw the glory thereof, as the glory of the only begotten Son of the Father) full of grace and truth.
¶ John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I said, He that cometh after me, was before me: for he was better than I.
And of his fullness have all we received, and grace for grace.
For the Law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
No man hath seen God at any time: that only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

@kellyjay said
I have not presented an absence of evidence. I started with the universe and life. I cannot imagine you missing both of those. They are here and all around you. The dispute may occur on what these two things tell us, but don't say I have not offered evidence I have given you two.

The universe appeared out of nothing isn't a valid explanation, can you can offer up an expl ...[text shortened]... ou don't know how it got here also is an absence of explanation which is still all you have offered.

And none of what you posted here gives any actual proof of "who" is responsible for the universe . Nothing but you asserting that "goddidit " .
If goddidit , then which god ?????
Zeus , Woden , Easter Bunny or Mithras could be responsible.

@caissad4 said
And none of what you posted here gives any actual proof of "who" is responsible for the universe . Nothing but you asserting that "goddidit " .
If goddidit , then which god ?????
Zeus , Woden , Easter Bunny or Mithras could be responsible.

Let Zeus, Woden, Easter Bunny, or Mithras followers produce something that spanned 1500 years, through 40 different authors, and given an account of their being and what they have done, are doing, and will do.

You asked for evidence, the universe and life were given, there are written accounts, they have been under assault for years and are still standing. You have something to compare to them side by side, several books from Zeus, or did the Easter bunny's son appear as a man so we could grasp what his father was like so we could understand him? I'm open to a material explanation, but do you have one, or are you just going to say no, not true without being able to give a definite reason why outside of an accretion it isn't true?

@kellyjay said
Let Zeus, Woden, Easter Bunny, or Mithras followers produce something that spanned 1500 years, through 40 different authors, and given an account of their being and what they have done, are doing, and will do.

You asked for evidence, the universe and life were given, there are written accounts, they have been under assault for years and are still standing. You have someth ...[text shortened]... no, not true without being able to give a definite reason why outside of an accretion it isn't true?

You make unfounded assertions over and over. Yours' is a belief and nothing else .
The Hindu and Buddhist writings are much older than the ones you present.
Maybe Krishna could be the way.

@caissad4 said
You make unfounded assertions over and over. Yours' is a belief and nothing else .
The Hindu and Buddhist writings are much older than the ones you present.
Maybe Krishna could be the way.

Unfounded, and you only have another assertion! Give me something you are using to reject the notion God created everything and then made life, how do you know? There has to be something outside maybe someone else created it?