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@sonship Thanks for stopping for lengths sake. Whew!!!
If you skimmed over it you should go BACK and read it carefully.
You go from door to door and set up REPEATED sessions with your perspective students.
Why? Because you know not everything can be explained in 25 word quicky sound bites. You need time, concentration, and repeated sessions.
So why bulk when I take a little of yours?
"Your organization is in rebellion. You reject worship forever and ever of the Triune God - of Him on the throne and the Lamb the Redeemer God-man.
You are in rebellion."
That is what I wrote. I have to stand by it.
I had them attempt to school me in my young years as a Christian.
Well yes we are. We have cleaned house so to say with all the paganistic teachings and doctrines that the churches still hang on too.
You may be proud that you have no Christmas trees and no Easter Bunnies. I agree. However, you have far more serious problems then these in that you were deceived to substitute Michael into the ministry of Christ the Son of God.
Not all Christian gatherings do Christmas, crosses, Mary worship, Easter, Holloween.
"Brethren" churches are often absent symbols found in Christiandom.
"Church of Christ - Disciples" are often absent pagan symbols.
"Quaker" assemblies are often minus a lot of pagan hoopla.
You are not the only Bible readers who have seen through a lot of this pagan leaven.
These positive traits in JWs do not excuse your tampering with the Father-Son-Holy Spirit.
You deceive yourself if you think neglecting these errors credits you also for denying that "and the Word was God".
I know that you know more about the millennial kingdom then many mainline Christian denominations. This does not justify that you make "the Word" another god, and that an archangel.
You have taken one step FORWARD and three steps BACKWARDS. Herein is the insidious deception.
So yes we've changed and have rid ourselves of what is not biblical, have nothing to do with the politics of the world, will not fight in mans wars and do all we can to do exactly as Jesus said.
The few positive moves your organization has made has deceived you all into thinking that opposing the incarnation and the nature of God are accomplishments too.
In counterfeiting money, the more it APPEARS to be the real thing the more deceptive it can be.
"The Word was God". Turning your back on Santa Claus doesn't justify you teaching "the Word was (a) god."
Apart from Jehovah there is no God. He says He knows of none. How can you?
"Before Me there was no God formed. Neither will there be any after Me.
I, even I, am Jehovah; and there is no Savior besides Me." (Isa. 43:10,11) ...
"And you are My witnesses. Is there a God besides Me?
Or is there any other Rock? I do not know of any. (44:8b)
And in the New Testament in which you are in utter rebellion, Jesus instructed the disciples that they would be HIS witnesses.
"But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and YOU SHALL BE MY WITNESSES both in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and unto the uttermost part of the earth." (Acts 1:5)
So to truly be a witness of Jehovah you need to be a witness of Jesus Christ God incarnate - "You shall be MY WITNESSES ..."
Huh ??
So sorry buddy you have an issue with those things. It is not you are anyone here that we are trying to impress or be friends with or slink down into submission because of the pressure you and others would like to put on ones who have rejected your false teachings.
I don't know what this means. I allow debaters to go away and think on what has been presented to them. Whether by pressure or to be sure that they believing right things.
These things take time. They can take a long time.
A long time elapsed before I cried out "Jesus, take me home. I am tired. Lord Jesus take me home."
My God is the man Jesus Christ - according to the Holy Bible.
Christ is NOT Michael the archangel.
"For to WHICH of the angels has He ever said, 'You are My Son; this day I have begotten You." (Hebrews 1:5)
To Gabriel the angel? No.
To Daystar the angel [Lucifer]? No.
What about to Michael the archangel? No.
@sonship Lol. You just showed how much you don't know about us by this comment:
"If you skimmed over it you should go BACK and read it carefully.
You go from door to door and set up REPEATED sessions with your perspective students.
Why? Because you know not everything can be explained in 25 word quicky sound bites. You need time, concentration, and repeated sessions.
So why bulk when I take a little of yours?"
Really, you think that's all we do is a 25 minute speech and that's all? Read this and weep:
2018 Grand Totals
Branches of Jehovah’s Witnesses: 87
Number of Lands Reporting: 240
Total Congregations: 119,954
Worldwide Memorial Attendance: 20,329,317
Memorial Partakers Worldwide: 19,521
Peak of Publishers *: 8,579,909 ( Over 20 million attend the Lords evening meal.
- the 8.5 million JW's already there that leaves about 14 million that are interested at least but many of those are studying with us. )
Average Publishers Preaching Each Month: 8,360,594
Percentage of Increase Over 2017: 1.4
Total Number Baptized 2018: 281,744
Average Pioneer * Publishers Each Month: 1,267,808
Average Auxiliary Pioneer Publishers Each Month: 446,642
Total Hours Spent in Field: 2,074,655,497
Average Bible Studies * Each Month: (((((((((( 10,079,709 ))))))))) Do you have any concept of what a Bible study is? It's a lot more then the 25 second speech you seriously misquote.
And I can promise you the average JW teenager knows the bible better then you do my friend.
04 Sep 19
1 edit
@caissad4 saidIf you don’t know, you don’t know! I said evidence not proof. Since I have offered nothing that can be has to do with gaps and all you have offered is “I don’t know” the filling in of gaps is all you.
Your definition of proof is clearly different than mine .
Your definition of evidence is different than mine .
And you do not have any understanding of the phrase "god of the gaps " .
Little wonder you are incapable of understanding much of what I post.
05 Sep 19
@kellyjay saidRight . You don't know what "the god of the gaps " means .
If you don’t know, you don’t know! I said evidence not proof. Since I have offered nothing that can be has to do with gaps and all you have offered is “I don’t know” the filling in of gaps is all you.
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05 Sep 19
1 edit
Really, you think that's all we do is a 25 minute speech and that's all? Read this and weep:
You read the exact opposite into what I intended you to read. My point was that you take repeated sessions (as you just boasted with statistics) and that takes TIME and patience.
You read the words but inserted that I was saying you teach superficially. You saw the exact OPPOSITE of what I intended to say.
Now, list which verses I MISQUOTED please. Give me your two or three most striking instances of my MISQUOTING the Bible.
@sonship saidWell shut my mouth... Sorry buddy. I did read it wrong.
@galveston75
Really, you think that's all we do is a 25 minute speech and that's all? Read this and weep:
You read the exact opposite into what I intended you to read. My point was that you take repeated sessions (as you just boasted with statistics) and that takes TIME and patience.
You read the words but inserted that I was saying you teach super ...[text shortened]... es I MISQUOTED please. Give me your two or three most striking instances of my MISQUOTING the Bible.
But just about every scripture you post you misquote who it is speaking about. But that's what the trinity does to it's believers. And that's why it has always been called a mystery. No two believers if this paganistic teaching can ever agree what it is. And to ones who don't believe it and know it's origin, see your postings as a mumbo jumbo explination. Sorry but that's the way it has always come over by ones who don't buy it.
I've actually talked to church preachers and they end up so tongue tide trying to explain it I actually feel sorry for them.
And when I make statements to you such as why couldn't that term, "the first and last" apply to them both, you blow it off. That is just your way to not think about it and don't want to hear it because you know it just might blow your belief in the trinity.
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05 Sep 19
5 edits
But just about every scripture you post you misquote who it is speaking about. But that's what the trinity does to it's believers. And that's why it has always been called a mystery. No two believers if this paganistic teaching can ever agree what it is. And to ones who don't believe it and know it's origin, see your postings as a mumbo jumbo explination. Sorry but that's the way it has always come over by ones who don't buy it.
I've actually talked to church preachers and they end up so tongue tide trying to explain it I actually feel sorry for them.
And when I make statements to you such as why couldn't that term, "the first and last" apply to them both, you blow it off. That is just your way to not think about it and don't want to hear it because you know it just might blow your belief in the trinity.
This is kind of nebulously general and vague.
WHERE in this paragraph are SPECIFIC examples that you could cut and paste in showing my MISQUOTING of the Bible ?
I await your EXAMPLES rather than generalized assertion.
Now, as to all Christians agreeing - There can be ONENESS and UNITY though Christians differ in opinions about minor matters. Even on not too minor matters, LOVE and FORBEARANCE (which are good to the heart) can be enjoyed among the saints.
As to "mystery". Your expected whimsical quip about "mystery" might be effective EXCEPT for the fact that the word of God ITSELF speaks of MYSTERY a few times.
Mystery does not mean NO SUBJECTIVE EXPERIENCE POSSIBLE or CANNOT BE ENJOYED.
Eat a sandwich for lunch tomorrow. Enjoy it. I assure you that there are SOME things about you eating a sandwich, a good delicious sandwich, which are STILL a mystery to the best nutritionists and scientists.
Have you witnessed a child being born? I saw both my children be born. WOW !! It was tremendous. I would not say that there was absolutely NO MYSTERY about those events.
So the Father - Son - Spirit as the ONE NAME God can be experienced, and that unto eternity. No shame in joyfully admitting there is some mystery to Him as we commune and fellowship with Him.
Super PRIDE in human intellect often leads people to chide " Oh, my dear fellow, There is no MYSTERY about Christ. WHY with our big brains we understand EVERYTHING."
So there is no blushing from this believer at "the mystery of God, Christ" (Col. 2:2)
05 Sep 19
2 edits
@caissad4 saidThe universe and life I brought up because of the things I know, not because all that surrounds them are complete mysteries. The functional complexity of both the universe and life is so overwhelming that random chance should be eliminated immediately without even entertaining it. Universal values like gravity and the universal expansion rates precisely set where if either were off minutely life everywhere would not be possible, to only name two of many important values.
Right . You don't know what "the god of the gaps " means .
All of the things that had to take place for life to come together at first; we cannot even begin to contemplate because we do not have a clue how it happened. The list of requirements for getting just the right parts together, at the right time, in the right place, under the right conditions, in the proper conditions, is enormous, and that is only getting the parts together.
The parts being in the same place, in the proper conditions, at the right levels, among other things, are not even the most challenging thing about life! The information in the code that causes it to do all the things needed, when! That is the most diffuclt thing in the whole process, but that is not because we do not know why or how, we know that type of information is in books, papers, coded instructions come from a mind not random chance over time. Manipulations of complex functions are as a result of a mind. In the case of life and the universe, it makes the most sense.
So a little reasoning from on two pieces of evidence I brought forward compared to "I do not know." I do not think your are very convincing at all.
@kellyjay saidDo you believe your claim ~ that the Christian God figure created the universe ~ is an "absolute truth" and that your analysis is "objective"?
The universe and life I brought up because of the things I know, not because all that surrounds them are complete mysteries. The functional complexity of both the universe and life is so overwhelming that random chance should be eliminated immediately without even entertaining it. Universal values like gravity and the universal expansion rates precisely set where if either w ...[text shortened]... f evidence I brought forward compared to "I do not know." I do not think is very convincing at all.
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05 Sep 19
1 edit
And when I make statements to you such as why couldn't that term, "the first and last" apply to them both, you blow it off. That is just your way to not think about it and don't want to hear it because you know it just might blow your belief in the trinity.
I will go back a second time and look at your explanation.
But you should reserve some "feeling sorry" for your teachers and yourself who make a blind leap of using Michael the archangel as a stand in for the Son of God.
Feel sorry for this feeble heresy and those cheated by it.
As far as I can see, based mostly on one twisted little verse (1 Thess. 4:16) your teacher tried to introduce a MAJOR, shift in the meaning of the Bible.
The Son of God is an archangel, allegedly.
Feel sorry for yourself if you don't repent and come before the great white throne having spread such a lie around the world.
Without a doubt the New Testament draws forth worship of the Lord Jesus Christ. If He is an angel like Michael we are told not to worship the angels.
"Let no one defraud you of your prize [by] ... and the worship of the angels ..." (Col. 2:18a)
NO WORSHIP OF THE ANGELS.
So your solution is that men do not worship the Lord Jesus Christ ??
Your students grow cold towards the Lord Jesus Christ.
I think they actually may end up hating the Lord Jesus Christ subconsciously.
I think JW is a religion based on hate in some regards. The teaching is from the puffed up mind of the flesh and not of the Holy Spirit. You cannot fight a heresy with another worse heresy.
05 Sep 19
@sonship saidWell as wrong as you are on the bible your even more wrong about your silly opinion of the JW's. But I don't really care to tell the truth.
@galveston75
And when I make statements to you such as why couldn't that term, "the first and last" apply to them both, you blow it off. That is just your way to not think about it and don't want to hear it because you know it just might blow your belief in the trinity.
I will go back a second time and look at your explanation.
But you should reserve ...[text shortened]... p mind of the flesh and not of the Holy Spirit. You cannot fight a heresy with another worse heresy.
But to humor me, what was Jesus's name before he came to earth? Try and keep it simple...
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06 Sep 19
2 edits
So do you worship Jesus then?
I join all creation in the universal worship of the Triune God.
" And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea and all things in them, I heard saying,
To Him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever.
And the four living creatures said, Amen. And the elders fell down and worshipped." (Rev. 5:13,14)
It is no "silly" opinion that Jehovah's Witnesses are in rebellion. For you refuse to render worship -" To Him who sits upon the throne AND TO THE LAMB.
You reject "the Lamb" for adoration, honor, worship. You should repent of this indoctrination of rebellion - refusing to render the honor to the Son of God.
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06 Sep 19
Average Bible Studies * Each Month: (((((((((( 10,079,709 ))))))))) Do you have any concept of what a Bible study is? It's a lot more then the 25 second speech you seriously misquote.
You still have not indicated the "seriously misquot[ed]" Bible verses I wrote.
In your next post how about you either provide samples or retract the accusation?
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06 Sep 19
4 edits
Additionally, the term “the First [pro’tos, not alpha] and the Last [e’skha·tos, not omega]” occurs at Revelation 1:17, 18 and 2:8. In these verses, the context shows that the one referred to died and later returned to life.
You admit that it is Jesus speaking in Revelation 1:17 as "the First and the Last".
Then you make a point that these words are not Alpha and Omega. That is obvious. But it does you not good because Jesus also says He is the Alpha and the Omega.
"Behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me to render to each one as his work is, I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." (Rev. 22:12,13)
He Who says He is the First and the Last is ALSO the Alpha and the Omega. He Who says He is the Alpha and the Omega is ALSO the First and the Last.
And since you brought up Revelation 2:8 of Jesus saying He is the First and the Last, I remind you that the END of each epistle He says to "hear what the Spirit says" to the churches.
So in each of the seven letters the speaking begins with Jesus Christ.
And at the end of each the call is to hear what the Holy Spirit says to the churches.
"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." (2:7,11,17,29; 3:6,13,22)
Revelation reveals the triune God - They live in one another - coinherance.