Barriers to belief

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
So you can't have it both ways.

I am not trying to have it "both ways". In what way do you think I am? My former faith was "genuine", as in sincere, real to me, and I acted upon it as a set of [what I perceived to be] truths. "Genuine" in that sense. Now, today, as an ex-Christian, I no longer perceive those things to be true. This is not something that I have "admitted". It is something I have openly and unequivocally stated. This is not having it "both ways" in any sense whatsoever.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
I don't agree with your version of 'faith loss'. Instead of the word 'genuine' let me rather say 'God given'. I don't think 'God given' faith can be lost. God finishes the work that he starts. So I don't think your faith was 'God given' and I'm sure neither do you, so we are agreed.

Parable of the seeds. What does God given mean?

Originally posted by FMF
I am not trying to have it "both ways". In what way do you think I am? My former faith was "genuine", as in sincere, real to me, and I acted upon it as a set of what I perceived to be truths. "Genuine" in that sense. Now, today, as an ex-Christian, I no longer perceive those things to be true. This is not something that I have "admitted". It is something I have openly and unequivocally stated. This is not having it "both ways" in any sense whatsoever.

Your faith back in the day was either real or it wasn't. Clearly we both agree it wasn't real.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
I don't agree with your version of 'faith loss'. Instead of the word 'genuine' let me rather say 'God given'. I don't think 'God given' faith can be lost. God finishes the work that he starts. So I don't think your faith was 'God given' and I'm sure neither do you, so we are agreed.

Your current ideology has absolutely bearing on what I felt to be real, believed to be true and perceived to be my relationship with the Christian god figure in the past. I think you wittering on to a non-Christian about how some aspect of your thinking is "given" to you by a supernatural being is you simply promoting yourself and your ideas and, to a degree, you seem to be using this ideology to try to define "faith loss" out of existence in a No True Scotsman way.

Am I the first ex-Christian you've ever engaged? Oops... oh wait... with your ideological stance, there is no such thing as an ex-Christian, right? And according to that same ideological stance, you can say for sure - YET - whether you are a Christian or not either.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
Your faith back in the day was either real or it wasn't. Clearly we both agree it wasn't real.

It felt real to me back then, just like yours feels real to you now. I think we can agree on that.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
Your faith back in the day was either real or it wasn't. Clearly we both agree it wasn't real.

Do I think your purported 'relationship with God' is "real"? No. I don't. Do I now think my supposed 'relationship with God' in the past was "real"? No. I don't.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
God is the author and finisher of our faith. If someone 'loses their faith' it means God was not the author and therefore it was not genuine.

How many types of "faith" are there...Genuine and...?

What about the parable of the sower?

Originally posted by FMF
Your current ideology has absolutely bearing on what I felt to be real, believed to be true and perceived to be my relationship with the Christian god figure in the past. I think you wittering on to a non-Christian about how some aspect of your thinking is "given" to you by a supernatural being is you simply promoting yourself and your ideas and, to a degree, yo ...[text shortened]... same ideological stance, you can say for sure - YET - whether you are a Christian or not either.

Of course ex-Christians like yourself exist. They are people who used to call themselves Christians but no longer do because they realized that their faith was not real.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
This was my stance. I see nothing in it about God torturing people for eternity.

“There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly d ...[text shortened]... en and only the unshakeable remains.”

These quotes are from The Great Divorce, by C.S Lewis.

Yes we've had lots of CS Lewis quotes in over the years and while they have a certain intuitive appeal to certain Christians they are nothing more than opinion and conjecture.

Furthermore what you posted does does answer my question, which was why you can be so unequivocal now, when for threads and threads (acknowledging that I read about as much of your posts as I do sonship's), you have been nothing but unequivocal, furtive and slippery about what you believe and why.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
You said before that your faith was genuine. Now you are saying it was in fact not real. So clearly it was not genuine and you have just admitted that. Of course I perceive my faith to be genuine. The fact that you lost your faith which you thought was genuine at the time doesn't mean that I am going to loose my faith either now does it? So you can't have it both ways.

Your position on not losing faith is completely unsupported by a wider view of the gospel writings. To conflate losing faith with losing salvation is also unsupported and contradictory to the premise of repentance, forgiveness and a loving god.

You seem to have built a Christian absolutism around yourself, based on I suspect a taught ideology which is weakly supported by an idea, an occasional scripture and a handful of CS Lewis quotations.

You ignore the parable teachings of Christ such as the sower and the prodigal son, and the wider concepts of forgiveness. Faith unto salvation is god given but losing faith without gaining salvation is just a scriptural as losing faith without losing salvation. The theme of salvation through the bible is about inheritence and birthright not about legalism and good works. The people of God are a family and someone cannot become a non-member of a family if they are born into it is impossible.

Originally posted by divegeester
Yes we've had lots of CS Lewis quotes in over the years and while they have a certain intuitive appeal to certain Christians they are nothin more than opinion and conjecture.

Furthermore what you posted does does answer my question, which was why you can be so unequivocal now, when for threads and threads (acknowledging that I read about as much of y ...[text shortened]... 's), you have been nothing but unequivocal, furtive and slippery about what you believe and why.

Christian and Christianity are such ambiguous terms. It makes these kinds of discussions very difficult.

Hopefully he responds to the parable of the sower so we can clarify terms.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
Of course ex-Christians like yourself exist. They are people who used to call themselves Christians but no longer do because they realized that their faith was not real.

There you go contradicting yourself again.

How can FMF be an ex-Christian if, as you say, he faith was not genuine? Who are you to judge what his relationship is with god, or more importantly what god's relationship is with FMF. How do you know that FMF is not the prodigal son?

"The Prodigal FMF"

Originally posted by FMF
Do I think your purported 'relationship with God' is "real"? No. I don't. Do I now think my supposed 'relationship with God' in the past was "real"? No. I don't.

So then we agree your faith was not 'real' or 'genuine'.

Originally posted by divegeester
Yes we've had lots of CS Lewis quotes in over the years and while they have a certain intuitive appeal to certain Christians they are nothing more than opinion and conjecture.

Furthermore what you posted does does answer my question, which was why you can be so unequivocal now, when for threads and threads (acknowledging that I read about as much of ...[text shortened]... 's), you have been nothing but unequivocal, furtive and slippery about what you believe and why.

So your views on the matter are not opinion and conjecture?

Originally posted by divegeester
Your position on not losing faith is completely unsupported by a wider view of the gospel writings. To conflate losing faith with losing salvation is also unsupported and contradictory to the premise of repentance, forgiveness and a loving god.

You seem to have built a Christian absolutism around yourself, based on I suspect a taught ideology which i ...[text shortened]... amily and someone cannot become a non-member of a family if they are born into it is impossible.

So where does the Bible say that you can loose your faith and not your salvation?