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@Rajk999
<<Do you understand what Paul said here:
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another) (Romans 2:13-15 KJV)>>
I believe what the Apostle Paul is saying here is that the Jews are not special just because they’re Jews and received the Law (10 Commandments) from God.
I think Paul is contrasting Jews who received (heard) the Law and don’t follow it to Gentiles who did not receive the Law but do follow it through their hearts.
I think Paul is demonstrating the importance of the heart in following the Law - the changed heart and inward heart transformation that the Holy Spirit accomplishes after someone accepts and believes in Jesus Christ and receives God’s Holy Spirit.
For it’s through the heart that the Gentiles “do by nature the things contained in the law.”
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@rajk999 saidOk.
Why is your writing so jumbled and hard to read. Do my posts look like that total mess ?
I wont even bother reading that.
Is this format easier?
You omitted parts of that passage (Matthew 7:21-27) that contradict your belief.
You specifically omitted part of verse 22. Here is verse 22 in its entirety:
“22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?”
Followed by verse 23:
“23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”
So the people that Jesus says should depart from him are those who, in his name, had prophesied, cast out devils and “done many wonderful works.”
Sounds like works, even wonderful works, don’t lead to salvation.
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I also have dealt with this misunderstanding of Matthew 25:31-46.
These people are not judged according to the gospel preached by the church.
These people are judged according to the gospel preached by the angel in the air, an eternal gospel in Revelation 14:6-7 in the darkest closing time of the great tribulation.
In the eternal gospel preached by the angelic voice the choice is to either follow Antichrist who proclaims himself as God or fear God the true Creator of heaven and earth.
This is brief.
I have written much on this in times past.
Both in the millennial kingdom and in the new heaven and new earth the sons of God reign. If sons of God reign forever and ever there must be some over whom they will reign. It is not logical that they reign over each other.
Those who follow Antichrist will with the Antichrist be totally unsympathetic to the Lord's brothers the preserved Jews and the Christians.
Those who see the world being turned upside down by God the Creator and heeding the eternal gospel of God the Creator from the angel in the air will be sympathetic to the hounded, persecuted, deprived, refuge brothers of the Lord even to the least of them.
They will be the restored nations reigned over by the sons of God who are restored back to the state of Adam before he was fallen.
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@rajk999 saidIs this format better (I broke up my response for you.)
Why is your writing so jumbled and hard to read. Do my posts look like that total mess ?
I wont even bother reading that.
And what of verse 21 (in Matthew 7)
“21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.”
What is the will of the Father in Heaven?
Jesus answers that in John 6:40:
“40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
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@rajk999 saidThird section:
Why is your writing so jumbled and hard to read. Do my posts look like that total mess ?
I wont even bother reading that.
Again, no one is saying keeping of the commandments isn’t important.
But no one, not even Paul the Apostle, who had an encounter with the Resurrected Christ, could live a perfect Law keeping life.
He says as much in Romans 7.
And the Apostle Peter denied knowing Jesus after telling Him he would follow Him to His death.
Man’s only hope in obeying the commandments *most of the time* is through the power of God’s indwelt Holy Spirit, which new believers receive when they accept and believe in Jesus Christ and in His Resurrection a la John 3:16 and Romans 10:9.
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@rajk999 saidLast section:
Why is your writing so jumbled and hard to read. Do my posts look like that total mess ?
I wont even bother reading that.
Good works and keeping the commandments are important, but they’re evidence of salvation (not a requirement of it) and they’re evidence of God’s indwelt Holy Spirit changing someone’s heart.
@rajk999 saidI have no problem saying that there will be people who profess Christ who does not know Him. I have no problem saying that God will judge everyone.
Do you understand what Paul said here:
[i](For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing wi ...[text shortened]... is their guide to what is good and evil.
- Jesus will judge all people, and that includes atheists
The question I have asked you several times and have not once has been addressed is centered on only one specific group of people, no one else, just these.
The ones who have good works but deny Jesus.
The ones who have good works but ignore Jesus.
The ones who have good works but refuse Jesus.
The ones I'm not asking about are these.
Who has faith in Jesus their faith promotes good works.
Those who have faith in Jesus believe they must also earn His grace by works.
Those who have faith in Jesus believe they don't have to lift a finger to obey God.
Those are working to earn salvation by their efforts because they believe in God.
We both have in the past agreed that works without faith is dead.
I'm asking you, are works without faith, works without Jesus, do the works make them acceptable to God because they have good works? This has not been addressed in all of your past responses; you talk about everyone but them.
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@rajk999 saidRight on point one.
Well in that case the word 'believing' means more than one thing, professing belief and obeying the commandments. So there will be two categories of believers :
1. Those who profess belief as Jesus called them the Lord Lord type, but who do not obey the commandments, called the goats in Matt 25, the foolish man in Matt 7 and chaff etc and many other names. These are cast o ...[text shortened]... y follow and keep the commandments, the sheep, the wise man, the good fruit. These get eternal life.
Professing belief and actual belief are two different things.
Actual belief leads to salvation, whereby God’s Holy Spirit indwells a new believer and leads over time to a changed heart that gives the believer a desire to commune with God and a desire to follow His commandments (loving God, loving your neighbor, bearing one another’s burdens, helping the poor, etc.)
Not so right on point 2:
You’re omitting the importance of belief (in fact, you don’t even mention belief in Jesus Christ and in His Resurrection,) and you’re again claiming that Law keeping leads to salvation.
All of that is Old Testament. You’re still in the Old Testament.
Man cannot keep the Law to God’s standard. That’s why Jesus Christ came to earth - for man to have his sins forgiven through accepting and believing in Jesus Christ and in His Resurrection.
You say keeping the commandments leads to eternal life. Keeping the commandments to what degree? Some of the time? Most of the time? All of the time?
You won’t answer that question because failing to keep the commandments perfectly 100% of the time (which no one can do) leads to unforgiven sin and the Old Testament system of sacrificing animals to atone for sins is no longer in effect.
You have to accept and believe in Jesus Christ to have your sins forgiven. That’s the New Covenant. Keeping the commandments doesn’t forgive sins.
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We have heard much about faith without works is dead. We also should remember the blood of Christ cleanses us from "dead works".
"How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God , purify your conscience from dead works to serve the living God." (Heb. 9:14)
The light the gospel can convict the good doer for whom God is not known and is not living to him, that his conscience needs to be cleansed from good "dead works".
The real work of God is for God to work His living presence into our lives.
@pb1022 saidI started another thread on this topic.
Ok.
Is this format easier?
You omitted parts of that passage (Matthew 7:21-27) that contradict your belief.
You specifically omitted part of verse 22. Here is verse 22 in its entirety:
“22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?”
Followed b ...[text shortened]... d “done many wonderful works.”
Sounds like works, even wonderful works, don’t lead to salvation.
@pb1022 saidHow many people do you think Jesus and the disciples preached to .. say before He ascended into heaven? Several thousand, several hundred thousand ?
You’re omitting the importance of belief (in fact, you don’t even mention belief in Jesus Christ and in His Resurrection,) and you’re again claiming that Law keeping leads to salvation.
Can you quote one passage where Jesus says that belief in his resurrection is so important as you are claiming? There are NONE.
Now that means the Gospel of Christ and the preachings of disciples are defective.
@kellyjay saidFaith without works is dead. Works without faith is still good.
I have no problem saying that there will be people who profess Christ who does not know Him. I have no problem saying that God will judge everyone.
The question I have asked you several times and have not once has been addressed is centered on only one specific group of people, no one else, just these.
The ones who have good works but deny Jesus.
The ones who have goo ...[text shortened]... works? This has not been addressed in all of your past responses; you talk about everyone but them.
Faith + Works is the best and these form Saints who will rule with Christ for 1000 yrs.
Christ will judge.
From what the bible says, a man professing faith and who does evil deeds will fare very badly and face destruction. However a man who has no faith but who does good works will enter the Kingdom of God.
Matt 25. Those who do good works do it unto Jesus Christ, who rewards every man according to his works. Good works is an expression of brotherly love, Love is the fulfilment of the law. Charity is greater than faith.
Faith is really nothing. Its just a professed belief and is dead being alone. It is only when faith is put into action then it becomes living faith which leads to eternal life.
@rajk999 saidNo, what you just said is not true, "Works without faith is still good." for salvation. Good works are only that good works; nothing about them takes away our sins; they are not enough to please God since we have sinned against God, and no good works cleanse us from sin. Without Jesus Christ, no one will be right with God; the scriptures are very clear on that point. It is Jesus who cleanses us from sin, not our efforts; when Jesus was asked what works are required to be saved, He was clear on this measure in no uncertain terms.
Faith without works is dead. Works without faith is still good.
Faith + Works is the best and these form Saints who will rule with Christ for 1000 yrs.
Christ will judge.
From what the bible says, a man professing faith and who does evil deeds will fare very badly and face destruction. However a man who has no faith but who does good works will enter the Kingdom of ...[text shortened]... . It is only when faith is put into action then it becomes living faith which leads to eternal life.
John 6:27-29
Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.” Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”
If we are not walking with God in His Spirit, we cannot please God; there is nothing we could bring to Him He would find acceptable. Were it not for the grace of God, we would all perish; were it not for the Spirit of God, we would be in the flesh unable to please God.
Romans 8:9
You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
The way is narrow, few there are that find it, the way is Jesus Christ! You are proclaiming that without Jesus Christ, we are still acceptable to God, while the truth is we are unworthy of Him. You believe those that deny Him in this life are not going to hear the word, "I never knew you," do you believe that he will not deny those that deny Him in this life on the day of judgment?
Matthew 10:33
but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.
You believe anyone not following the Lord in this life is following Him; if those that claim to follow Him without picking up their crosses are not right with God, how do you believe those not even following Him is going to be accepted?
Mark 8:34
And calling the crowd to him with his disciples, he said to them, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.
What you preach is totally man centered, man does good works, God accepts man, which is not at all true. Those that think they are good enough due to the things they do are going to die in their sins.
@sonship saidOne serves the living God by doing good works.
We have heard much about faith without works is dead. We also should remember the blood of Christ cleanses us from "dead works".
"How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God , purify your conscience from dead works to serve the living God." (Heb. 9:14)
The light the gospel can conv ...[text shortened]... dead works"[/b].
The real work of God is for God to work His living presence into our lives.