Happy Easter

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
answered it already.

Putting your fingers in your ears and singing lalalalalaalalala is not very good forum etiquette robbie.

Originally posted by divegeester
Putting your fingers in your ears and singing lalalalalaalalala is not very good forum etiquette robbie.

I even gave a reason, twice now. You are in your senses, are you not? and I dont think i will be taking lessons on forum etiquette from you.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I even gave a reason, twice now. You are in your senses, are you not?

I was referring to my questions to you about your poor forum etiquette in refusing to answer questions because you have classified those questions as "personal" when you frequently ask "personal" questions yourself.

Doesn't that position make you feel a little uncomfortable with yourself?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie

No they mean different things but the origin is the same, and the fact that the Nazis hijacked it as a symbol of Arianism rather highlights the point at hand, for its exactly the same thing that your christian fellows have done with these pagan elements and i should really thank you for highlighting the fact. the fact that they view or perceive them as anything other than pagan symbols cannot and does not negate the fact that they are still pagan elements, the fact that the swastika and its use cannot and does not negate its Hindu origins.

So your are saying the Nazis hijacked the swastika from its Hindu [etc.] origins and that the symbol meant exactly the same when the Nazis used it, is that what you're saying?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
European paganism? I would need to research the matter to give any kind of informed answer although from memory I am sure that the paganism associated with eggs and fertility stretches beyond the borders of Europe.

If you don't know what the "pagan origin" of the symbol is ~ and "would need to research the matter" ~ then how can you be arguing that the origin of the symbol in Indonesia is exactly the same?

Originally posted by FMF
[b]No they mean different things but the origin is the same, and the fact that the Nazis hijacked it as a symbol of Arianism rather highlights the point at hand, for its exactly the same thing that your christian fellows have done with these pagan elements and i should really thank you for highlighting the fact. the fact that they view or perceive them as anyth ...[text shortened]... s and that the symbol meant exactly the same when the Nazis used it, is that what you're saying?

You can read I hope, here is what I said at the very outset, now for the THIRD time.

No they mean different things,

now how is it that I have said they mean different things and you are now asking me if they mean exactly the same thing? Is the language difficult? the wording verbose? the in house terms technical? Now if you cannot comprehend what I read in these terms I do not think that I can express myself any clearer than I am at present.

your argument amount to this, that symbolism has different meanings which has been acknowledged, and yet it does not and cannot negate the fact that these were and are pagan elements simply because your fellows decided to hijack them and 'Christen', them. If you them or anyone else is happy using pagan symbols in your worship with all the meaning that you have invested in them, then good luck to you, it does not negate what has transpired nor does it negate their origins.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
European paganism? I would need to research the matter to give any kind of informed answer although from memory I am sure that the paganism associated with eggs and fertility stretches beyond the borders of Europe.

Wasn't it you who cited "Ashtoreth and Astarte"? What are they, European? Middle Eastern? Are the "origin" of something that applies all over the world? What traction do you think or claim they have in Indonesia?

Originally posted by FMF
If you don't know what the "pagan origin" of the symbol is ~ and "would need to research the matter" ~ then how can you be arguing that the origin of the symbol in Indonesia is exactly the same?

exactly the same as what effhim?

Originally posted by divegeester
Good spot! Yes I accept that the KJ (or at least some versions of it) have Passover mistranslated as Easter.

I still don't see how this supports your position that Easter and it's religious artefacts are actually supported in Christian epistemology, in fact this mistranslation only goes to support my position that they crept in post Constantine and h ...[text shortened]... Christianity or importantly the account leading up to and immediately following Christ's death.

I agree that Easter was originally part of the Gentile pagan religion. However, if you recall the early church met in Jerusalem and decided what to require of the Gentile converts to Christianity. Below is that decision:

And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” Therefore, when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem, to the apostles and elders, about this question...

Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles. And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, listen to me: Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name...

Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood.

(Acts 15:1-2, 6-14, 19-20)

Notice the apostles did not forbid the Easter bunny or eggs or anything like that. What I am saying is that the Gentile Christians were allow to adapt some of their pagan customs by redefining them to Christian meanings because these things did not have any effect on their salvation. The name Easter was also adapted from paganism by some for the new Christian celebration (not Jewish) for the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
You can read I hope, here is what I said at the very outset, now for the THIRD time.

No they mean different things,

now how is it that I have said they mean different things and you are now asking me if they mean exactly the same thing? Is the language difficult? the wording verbose? the in house terms technical? Now if you cannot comprehend ...[text shortened]... then good luck to you, it does not negate what has transpired nor does it negate their origins.

A symbol only represents the meaning that people invest in it. If Indonesian Christians invest no "pagan beliefs" in the symbol than the symbol has no "pagan meaning" to Indonesian Christians. The meaning you personally invest in the symbol of the crucifix has no bearing on the meaning Indonesian Christians invest in it.

Originally posted by FMF
Wasn't it you who cited "Ashtoreth and Astarte"? What are they, European? Middle Eastern? Are the "origin" of something that applies all over the world? What traction do you think or claim they have in Indonesia?

you were asked if these elements were not originally pagan which you ignored, you were also asked why would a christian be carrying an essentially pagan symbol, to which you replied, they are no longer pagan. Do you seriously expect us to believe that because your fellows decided to hijack some pagan symbols and incorporate them into their worship that it masks the fact they were and are pagan symbols?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
exactly the same as what effhim?

You are arguing that the symbolisms have exactly the same origin and yet you said you'd have to research what the origin was. It's not the strongest point you've made these last few pages.

Originally posted by FMF
A symbol only represents the meaning that people invest in it. If Indonesian Christians invest no "pagan beliefs" in the symbol than the symbol has no "pagan meaning" to Indonesian Christians. The meaning you personally invest in the symbol of the crucifix has no bearing on the meaning Indonesian Christians invest in it.

so you seriously expect us to believe that just because your fellows hijacked some pagan symbols and poured some holy water on them that it no longer means in their instance that they are pagan symbols at all and that they are now magically transformed into christian symbols because of the value your friends have invested in them, wow.

Originally posted by FMF
You are arguing that the symbolisms have exactly the same origin and yet you said you'd have to research what the origin was. It's not the strongest point you've made these last few pages.

exactly the same as what effhim?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Do you seriously expect us to believe that because your fellows decided to hijack some pagan symbols and incorporate them into their worship that it masks the fact they were and are pagan symbols?

But they invest no "pagan meaning" in the symbols so there is no "pagan meaning" in them for Indonesian Christians.