@divegeester saidI know. I dont believe a man gets eternal life by professing faith ie the OSAS doctrine. That is not in the bible. Faith + works is the way to the Kingdom of God for Christian Saints in Christ. Born-again Christians who live in sin are destroyed.
As you know I don’t believe that any more than I believe in hell.
Not everybody is a born again Christian Saint. Many will enter the Kingdom of God by another route and this is also clearly stated.
Those who stick on to Paul do not see these doctrines in the bible because their mind is clouded by the 'saved by grace through faith and not by works' doctrine. That is for Christians.
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@josephw saidOh no! The mighty spiritual insult-flinger Josephw is here to sort us all out. 😲
One thing is for certain; neither FMF or divegeester knows what they're talking about with regards to "faith".
FMF denies the existence of the supernatural, which is the context of the "faith" of which is being discussed, which throughly disqualifies any and all of his thoughts and ideas relative to "faith". His words are of no effect and should be disregarded outright.
...[text shortened]... matters relative to "faith".
The both are not merely trolling this forum, they are troll clowns.
@josephw saidYour post is a good example of a small minded person and wasted words. You talking about other people. Why not contribute something of substance about the topic? Is it because you cannot and you find it easier to engage in trivial gossip about who knows about faith. What do you know? Tell us.
One thing is for certain; neither FMF or divegeester knows what they're talking about with regards to "faith".
FMF denies the existence of the supernatural, which is the context of the "faith" of which is being discussed, which throughly disqualifies any and all of his thoughts and ideas relative to "faith". His words are of no effect and should be disregarded outright.
...[text shortened]... matters relative to "faith".
The both are not merely trolling this forum, they are troll clowns.
@divegeester saidWhat page. I will have a read of it although I am familiar with your beliefs
Nor do I.
I laid out a bulleted précis of what I believe earlier.
@josephw saidAh-ha, yes. Yet another poster so pumped up by his religionist narcissism that he thinks he can reach back into someone's past life and unilaterally alter what someone believed to be true in the past.
One thing is for certain; neither FMF or divegeester knows what they're talking about with regards to "faith".
@josephw saidYou are mistaken. I am agnostic about "the supernatural". And I'm not claiming to still have faith now.
FMF denies the existence of the supernatural, which is the context of the "faith" of which is being discussed, which throughly disqualifies any and all of his thoughts and ideas relative to "faith".
@josephw saidYou and I may not perceive the world the same way and we may disagree about fundamental things, but this does not mean that me expressing my views is me "merely trolling this forum". You are using the word "trolling" in a way that renders it meaningless.
The both are not merely trolling this forum, they are troll clowns.
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@josephw saidYou are mistaken, I have laid out what I believe time and time again. In fact it is you who fail to back up what you believe with moral reasoning, it is you who hides behind scriptures about hell and then is utterly incapable of debating the moral implications.
Divegeester, who claims to be a Christian, blurts insistently all sorts of things that are designed to deride his debate opponent, expressing his personal opinions, yet fails miserably to support his thoughts by referencing the authority on matters relative to "faith".
And it is you who refuses point blank to answer turn-key questions such as …
Is the book of Revelation all literal or part literal part symbolic?
Tell you what, let’s kick off with that one when you are back from your “bathroom break”
@divegeester saidMy opinion on this is
I’ll be clear on where I stand on this
- There is no hell, Jesus did away with it at Calvary
- Everyone is saved, everyone. Because of calvary and resurrection
- This eternal salvation which has been purchased for us can be experienced here in this life through being born again (using the biblical term)
- Therefore you cannot “lose” your salvation you can only expe ...[text shortened]... ecause I’ve done away the two most powerful tools in Christendom’s toolbox, hell and the fear of it.
- Hell is real and it is there for the Devil and his angels, not humans. Evil humans are destroyed not tortured. {some reading of the apocrypha helps with an understanding of this and why it is so]
- I agree, everyone is saved by the death of Christ
I will have a think about the rest.
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03 Jan 22
@rajk999 saidThe reason I have come to that simple structure of belief is a matter of eliminating the other options through a process of moral reasoning.
My opinion on this is
- Hell is real and it is there for the Devil and his angels, not humans. Evil humans are destroyed not tortured. {some reading of the apocrypha helps with an understanding of this and why it is so]
- I agree, everyone is saved by the death of Christ
I will have a think about the rest.
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To repeat:
There is no hell, Jesus did away with it at Calvary
- Everyone is saved, everyone. Because of calvary and resurrection
- This eternal salvation which has been purchased for us can be experienced here in this life through being born again (using the biblical term)
- Therefore you cannot “lose” your salvation you can only experience it, or stop experiencing it, and start again experiencing it
- in addition …good works have to be done, but NOT doing them doesn’t lose you your salvation because of steps 1-3 above. Similarly DOING them doesn’t earn salvation for the same reason. The requirement remains however.
How do we know a Christian, by observing the fruit of the spirit. Not by observing words, posts, friendliness.
I’ll be slated as a heretic for these beliefs by the likes of sonship and Josephw of course, because I’ve done away the two most powerful tools in Christendom’s toolbox, hell and the fear of it.
03 Jan 22
@fmf saidThat is exactly what you are doing; if your faith were in something real, there wouldn't be a change, but if you found what you thought was true wasn't, it is gone. Faith is trusting in something you cannot prove; walking away just means, according to you, what you had wasn't real. When you then go and try and compare yourself to others who have not walked away, that is precisely what you are doing.
I believed all this kind of thing back in the day. That's why I am applying your assertions/analysis [about me] to you. This is not intended to be a willy-waving contest about HOW REAL or HOW TRUE anyone's faith is or was.
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@kellyjay saidFMF had a “sincere walking with Christ”, the same faith which you said earlier would preclude someone who lost their faith on their deathbed from going to hell…. How, in principle, is FMF’s prior faith any different from the example you gave earlier?
That is exactly what you are doing; if your faith were in something real, there wouldn't be a change, but if you found what you thought was true wasn't, it is gone. Faith is trusting in something you cannot prove; walking away just means, according to you, what you had wasn't real. When you then go and try and compare yourself to others who have not walked away, that is precisely what you are doing.
Edit “had” not has, in my first line.