03 Jan 22
@divegeester saidI answered, but you seem not to understand or ignore those responses.
But I’m not asking that am I. I’m asking you a very very simple question which you dodge and dodge, pretend you don’t under stand, deliberately answer a different question.
Here let me keep trying..what do you believe on this…
If you, or any sincere lifelong Christian, lost your faith at the point of death and died with that loss of faith, would you/they be cast into hell as if you had never believed?
Please try to answer this question.
03 Jan 22
@divegeester saidWe had several conversations, and they were not always nice ones, some I believe were my fault, some his, some yours. I don't recall everyone one of them, no.
Have you forgotten what FMF told you in 2018?
@kellyjay saidI didn't think it could happen either.
I'm asking you to describe to me losing one's faith. You keep asking me about what if I lost mine; I don't think that can happen, but if I'm unaware of what you mean, how could I know. So tell me, what does losing one's faith mean?
What does losing one's faith mean?
[1] I truly believed I had Christ in my life and that belief included an [2] unconditional acceptance of what I [at that time] was convinced the Bible told all Christians about [3] the identity of Christ and the [4] significance of his life and death. It had permeated every day of my life and everything I did.
I lost this faith.
After a long and gradual process, including reflection on the veracity of key parts of the Bible narrative, I realized I had lost the faith necessary to self-identify as a Christian.
That's what losing one's faith means.
I have been starting threads about the nitty-gritty details and causes of my current disbelief in Christian theology for over ten years on hundreds of threads, many of which you have posted on.
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@kellyjay saidA “response” is not an “answer” when a yes or a no is required.
I answered, but you seem not to understand or ignore those responses.
It’s disappointing that you are resorting to this low tactic KellyJay. You know very well that you haven’t answered the question and it makes me sad that as a professed Christian you are pretending you have.
But ok I’ll go with you and I apologise for missing your succinct reply somewhere. Would you kindly repeat for me a simple yes or a no response to my question of:
If you, or any sincere lifelong Christian, lost your faith at the point of death and died with that loss of faith, would you/they be cast into hell as if you had never believed?
@divegeester saidI have answered you, and your repeated accusation is something that gets old fast. Walking away from Christ, people do that all the time, but then it goes back to what I said earlier, were you indeed walking with him, or just giving him lip service. To repeat an earlier answer I gave, NO. But that is contingent on if you are indeed walking with the Lord or just giving him mouth service; if that is the case, you don't have anything to lose because you never had it. If you are walking with the Lord, our salvation depends on Christ, not on us, so having doubts at the end of one's life isn't going to change Christ's faithfulness at the very end of it.
It’s disappointing that you are resorting to this low tactic KellyJay. You know very well that you haven’t answered the question and it makes me sad that as a professed Christian you are pretending you have.
But ok I’ll go with you and apologise for missing you succinct reply somewhere. Would you kindly give me a simple yes or a no response to my question of: ...[text shortened]... nd died with that loss of faith, would you/they be cast into hell as if you had never believed? [/b]
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@kellyjay saidTo repeat an earlier answer I gave, NO.Ok thank you and sorry if I missed you being unequivocal reply previously.
I just want to be absolutely clear what this “NO” (you won’t go to hell if you lose your faith and die with that loss of faith) you have given, means. Correct me as soon as I go wrong KellyJay, thanks.
Reading your post above, you are saying that if a person loses their faith and dies with that loss, they will NOT go to hell…. IF (as in dependent on) when they had their faith it was genuine and sincere and walking with Christ…
Is that correct?
@fmf saidThank you for your reply. I'm not concerned about my losing faith in those terms, but I appreciate your honest answer, which I can imagine was not pleasant at all.
I didn't think it could happen either.
What does losing one's faith mean?
[1] I truly believed I had Christ in my life and that belief included an [2] unconditional acceptance of what I [at that time] was convinced the Bible told all Christians about [3] the identity of Christ and the [4] significance of his life and death. It had permeated every day of my life and everythi ...[text shortened]... f in Christian theology for over ten years on hundreds of threads, many of which you have posted on.
03 Jan 22
@divegeester saidYes, our salvation rests in Jesus, not in our performance here. If we walk away, that is another thing entirely. As I shared, I have given up before many years ago; it wasn't that I didn't believe, I just felt unworthy, and it was devastating.
Ok thank you and sorry if I missed you being unequivocal reply previously.
I just want to be absolutely clear what this “NO” (you won’t go to hell if you lose your faith and die with that loss of faith) you have given, means. Correct me as soon as I go wrong KellyJay, thanks.
Reading your post above, you are saying that if a person loses their faith and dies with ...[text shortened]... n) when they had their faith it was genuine and sincere and walking with Christ…
Is that correct?
We are good, don't worry about it; things are easy to miss with all the posts here; it isn't difficult to not see one or two.
@kellyjay saidI wasn't "concerned about my losing faith in those terms" either in, say, 1995. You now insist that I never truly believed in Jesus and didn't in, say, 1995.
I'm not concerned about my losing faith in those terms, but I appreciate your honest answer, which I can imagine was not pleasant at all.
Well, we never know for sure what's going to happen in the future, neither of us.
So, as I said umpteen pages ago, the logic of your "analysis", applied to you, just as you apply it to me, means that no one can be sure ~ including yourself ~ that you truly believe in Jesus - now in 2022 - until you get all way through your life still believing in Jesus. That's all.
And I'm not concerned about you losing your faith.
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@kellyjay saidPlease try to stop obfuscating. I’m not asking if our salvation rests in Jesus, I’m asking you about losing your faith on your deathbed. You seem to be very reluctant to address this critical subject head on.
Yes, our salvation rests in Jesus, not in our performance here. If we walk away, that is another thing entirely.
This is what I asked you
Reading your post above, you are saying that if a person loses their faith and dies with that loss, they will NOT go to hell…. IF (as in dependent on) PROVIDING when they did have their faith it was genuine and sincere and walking with Christ…
Is that correct, please be absolutely specific and unequivocal as my eternal life might depend on it. From your perspective that is.
Thank you.
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I’ll be clear on where I stand on this
- There is no hell, Jesus did away with it at Calvary
- Everyone is saved, everyone. Because of calvary and resurrection
- This eternal salvation which has been purchased for us can be experienced here in this life through being born again (using the biblical term)
- Therefore you cannot “lose” your salvation you can only experience it, or stop experiencing it, and start again experiencing it
I’ll be slated as a heretic for these beliefs by the likes of sonship and Josephw of course, because I’ve done away the two most powerful tools in Christendom’s toolbox, hell and the fear of it.
@fmf saidTrust me; if I believe it all depended on me alone, I have already gone there once. I will say this too: some of the most horrible things I have heard in my life came from people who believe in God; they attacked hurting people instead of comforting them during losses, saying things like, if your faith were stronger, your child would not have died. I think I would have exploded someone said that to me when we were going through that, but we were surrounded by loving people, those I worked with, those I fellowshipped with at church, and my family. Depending on where one was in the life, and that was all they knew of the Lord only came from people like that those they fellowshipped with, a loss of faith would be nothing but understandable.
I wasn't "concerned about my losing faith in those terms" either in, say, 1995. You now insist that I never truly believed in Jesus and didn't in, say, 1995.
Well, we never know for sure what's going to happen in the future, neither of us.
So, as I said umpteen pages ago, the logic of your "analysis", applied to you, just as you apply it to me, means that no one can be su ...[text shortened]... our life still believing in Jesus. That's all.
And I'm not concerned about you losing your faith.
Not attempting to put anything on you just sharing.
Going through things like that is never easy or fun; even the most loving, well-meaning people can say something they think is comforting, and it just rubs you raw.