Intelligent? Design

Originally posted by divegeester
OK, if you like. I certainly think I have a better intrepretation of a just and good God that either you and sonship.

It is one where the just and good god doesn't torture people in an eternal hellinsh place which he has especially created for that purpose from the begining of time.

OK, if you like. I certainly think I have a better intrepretation of a just and good God that either you and sonship.

So what you think God should be like outweighs what the Bible says God is like?

Originally posted by wolfgang59
Just finished talking with the surgeon who is going to cure the "trigger finger" I have in
3 fingers of my right hand. He told me the op is straight-forward, just snipping out some
"pulleys" in the hand. He told me they play no part in the function of hand or fingers.
"Not well designed then" I said.
"Not designed at all" he replied.

Also take a l ...[text shortened]... rce=univ&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwid6_m9loTQAhWEJpQKHT7hCUkQsAQIYA&dpr=0.75#imgrc=9pWGS-gjZ3n-hM%3A

Hope the surgery goes well. That you need it and that your surgeon is an atheist is not really evidence of unintelligent design through. As for giraffes with long necks, natural selection of long-neckedness works relatively fast and doesn't redesign what it doesn't need to.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
So what you think God should be like outweighs what the Bible says God is like?

No, it just outweighs what you say it says.

Originally posted by divegeester
No, it just outweighs what you say it says.

So I take it you don't believe in an eternal soul? How then do you explain the fact that believers get to live for ever and non believers don't?

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
So I take it you don't believe in an eternal soul? How then do you explain the fact that believers get to live for ever and non believers don't?

You can take it anyway you please.
I'm not interested in your blithering trollist questions.

Originally posted by divegeester
You can take it anyway you please.
I'm not interested in your blithering trollist questions.

Any question your don't have an answer to is a 'trollist' question, whatever that is.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
So I take it you don't believe in an eternal soul? How then do you explain the fact that believers get to live for ever and non believers don't?

A fact now is it?

Originally posted by sonship

Eternal punishment or eternal physical torture?

Suffering is a punishment.
The nature of that suffering we cannot fully know.

But nothing that is non-existence can suffer. The unrepentant sinner cannot be non-existent and be being punished.

Both are incompatible with a just and moral God but the latter is much easier to ...[text shortened]... and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you." (Matt. 6;33)

[/b]

You asked whether anyone was prepared to demonstrate whether eternal punishment was incompatible with a notion of God on various grounds.

I am happy to set out why eternal punishment is incompatible with idea of a loving and just God on moral grounds. All I am trying to do is establish the parameters of the question. This discussion has been framed in terms of hell as a place of extreme physical pain as a punishment for sins.

I don't want to spend a long time explaining the (what should be self-evident) truth that this is incompatible with the idea of a just and loving God for you to then shift the goal posts by saying that you meant any form of punishment.

Please just answer the question simply and clearly.

Are we talking about punishment in terms of physical pain lasting an eternity?

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
A fact now is it?

Yes, but is it a true fact?

Originally posted by divegeester
Then why do you get so upset when people express then to you?

Then why do you get so upset when people express then to you?

Is the issue about me?

I'm pretty sure it is about the truth as it has been revealed to us by God's word.
We have to let that be the main factor of knowing what is true.

In the past someone pointed out the wonderful Psalm 136 which chants over and over " For His living kindness is forever ". I think the KJV has it "His mercy endures forever"

Now that is wonderful to believe and to hear, the mercy of God endures FOREVER.

And as a young believer I always loved (and still do) this passage about the Lord as a Father pities those who fear Him.

" As a compassionate as a father is toward his children, so compassionate is Jehovah toward those who fear Him.

For He knows our frame; He remembers that we are dust. " (Psalm 103:13,14)

The Bible is full of utterances like this. You know that. But the Bible shows the severity side of God too along with His kindness.

We do not have Genesis followed ONLY by Psalm 103 that His mercy endures forever.

He says He will remove our sins from us as far as the east is from the west in verse 12. That is an infinite distance.

"For as high as the heavens are above the earth, So great is His loving kindness upon those who fear Him. As far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our trangressions from us." (vs.11,12) [

Suppose we foolishly refuse His forgiveness?
Suppose we foolishly assume God must be a sap, a pushover?

Maybe for millions of years the highest being, the Day Star [Lucifer], assumed there was only the kindness of God and He could be usurped, overthrown, opposed because maybe God is just a sappy sentimental nice God who will look the other way on sin, rebellion, unrighteousness, revolt, and transgression.

We cannot go through His word like a grocery store and only select the items which suite our taste.

Satan found out that God demands that He be regarded as holy.
And those who will not allow God to extricate them from Satan's rebellion will know the other side of God, His severity.

Hebrews 7:25 says the resurrected Savior Jesus is a great High Priest who is able to intercede for the saved forever, saving them "to the uttermost"

"Hence also He is able to save to the uttermost those who come forward to God through Him, since He lives always to intercede for them."

But what if we refuse His resurrection to believe it?
But what if we refuse His intercession?
But what if we reject His saving of us?
But what if we refuse to "come forward" from sinning to God through Christ?

We should realize His severity along with His kindness.
He will manifest His righteous judgment. And though the rebellious sinner would like to not know, God will see that forever they WILL know that He is God.

Originally posted by Rank outsider

You asked whether anyone was prepared to demonstrate whether eternal punishment was incompatible with a notion of God on various grounds.

I am happy to set out why eternal punishment is incompatible with idea of a loving and just God on moral grounds.

You would have to show that the love of God would mean He also allows harm, pollution, opposition, oppression, persecution, and all kinds of evil things to exist in the same creation with those who receive His love.

But that would not be love of God.
The more He loves the more His hatred towards evil must also accompany His care for those whom He loves.

We are not sober minded. We are befuddled by excessive liberal attitudes of permissiveness. We do not see that the infinite love of God must go with His vengeance on all that opposes His eternal purpose. What stands against the WILL of this eternal Lover must feel the extent of His holy anger.

All I am trying to do is establish the parameters of the question. This discussion has been framed in terms of hell as a place of extreme physical pain as a punishment for sins.

The whole being of the lost perishes somehow - their spirit and soul and body.

I am framing the biblical revelation of eternal punishment as the suffering of the whole human being - spirit and soul and body. I do not have to be an expert on how this will happen. I only need to believe God's word that it can and will if we are not reconciled to God.

I am not curious to the point that I want to personally find out how God could do this.
But as I read about what God can do throughout the Bible, it is foolish for me to think He could not do what ever He deems is necessary to do.

I don't want to spend a long time explaining the (what should be self-evident) truth that this is incompatible with the idea of a just and loving God for you to then shift the goal posts by saying that you meant any form of punishment.

Please just answer the question simply and clearly.

Are we talking about punishment in terms of physical pain lasting an eternity?

I just told you that the entire being of the lost is under His punishment - spirit and soul and body.

If you are going to argue about the science of it, such eloquent reasonings have never given me the comfort that such stark warnings of damnation should not be taken seriously.

In the book of Daniel the three Hebrew young men were thrown into a furnace of fire. Not a thread of their clothing was singed. They were not harmed at all. Others of the king's servants couldn't even get close to the flame without burning up.

How could God do that? I do not know. But apparently He can regulate the reaction to flames along a wide spectrum of possibilities. God can apparently control what will happen when spirit - soul - body are under whatever kind of punishment He wants to inflict on the lost.

You have to decide if God has spoken.
And you have to decide if God will do (somehow) what He says He will do.

So the ability is with God.
The willingness to use that ability on Satan, Antichrist, the fallen angels, the demons and the unrepentant human beings is there too.

Originally posted by sonship
Is the issue about me?

You said:

Originally posted by sonship
"I don't care about those opinions."

I'm just replying to what you said. You get very upset when people give you their opinions about what you believe, so yes, clearly it is about you based on what you said.

Originally posted by sonship
We should realize His [b]severity along with His kindness.
He will manifest His righteous judgment[/b]

Yes, yes we all understand that.

It is your interpretation of what this so called "righteous judgment looks like which is the issue.

Arguing the broader picture does not justify your amoral position of defending eternal torture.

Originally posted by sonship

You asked whether anyone was prepared to demonstrate whether eternal punishment was incompatible with a notion of God on various grounds.

I am happy to set out why eternal punishment is incompatible with idea of a loving and just God on moral grounds.

You would have to show that the love of God would mean He also allows harm, pollutio ...[text shortened]... Satan, Antichrist, the fallen angels, the demons and the unrepentant human beings is there too.

Does being sent to hell involve pain for the individual concerned for all eternity as a punishment for sins committed?

You haven't answered this yet.

(And, no, my answer won't be based in science. As I said I would be arguing it on moral grounds, it shows how little attention you pay to what others say. And why your responses are so long and rambling. Stop answering questions of your own making and concentrate on what I asked you.)

Originally posted by divegeester

I'm just replying to what you said. You get very upset when people give you their opinions about what you believe, so yes, clearly it is about you based on what you said.

is that something i said? I get upset ?
Where did I say that ?
I hear people's contrarian opinions much.

i don't claim to be the perfect communicator concerning these matters. Jesus didn't say for me to WAIT until I had concrete, unassailable eloquence before proclaiming the Gospel. From day #1 I spoke of Christ's salvation.

Also sometimes I returned to people latter and apologized for something in my approach. I think they appreciated it. Others used it as leverage to attack the message all the more.

Sure, i would like to be like Stephen whom the Acts said had a wisdom which none of his adversaries could contradict. But that is not most of us believers.

So as imperfect and "unqualified" as someone wants to judge me, I still speak of the glorious Gospel of Christ.

We want to bring the Lord back. This earth needs the Lord Jesus to come back. When the gospel is preached to the whole world, the end will come.

Now some of us here are seeking the truth. So I'll just have to bear with the criticism.
If there were none, I would be worried that I am not being faithful to my Lord.