Intelligent? Design

Originally posted by sonhouse
And your evidence? Verses in a book thousands of years old. That's it. The thing is, there are hundreds of creation stories from other religions and how do you prove YOURS is the true one? The answer is you can't. All you have and that's ALL you have is faith.

Faith is not proof. Faith is just blind trusting in words written down thousands of years ago. ...[text shortened]... ty of destroying the foundations of your faith. I think THAT is the crux of why you dis science.

Am I too assume you agree with my statement?

"Thank you as I said evolutionists do not care about the big picture they have other people worrying about that. No need to work out how stars played apart in the process so they ignore everything except their piece of the puzzle.

The Big Bang does not address where everything comes from since the singularity and whatever it was sitting in are part of everything so where did they come from is the question?"

My evidence is a universe full of stuff with no explanation for it being here outside of
creation. The book(s) are thousands of years old yes, and they are written by about
40 different people over a span of 1500 years if I'm not mistaken.

You as I have pointed out science does not have an explanation on how it all got here,
and when I told you that evolution doesn't address this, it just assumes, you tell me that
the search for truth is in separate science disciplines which agrees with my point!

I'm not at all dissing science, I'm just not giving it credit for something it has not said. At
no time has a theory on how it all got here been brought forth. Now you may put your
faith/belief/trust in some guy's thoughts on the matter but at least be honest in that is what
you are doing. I don't fear or dread science, people I may have an issue with, but no
matter what side of any argument that can be true.

TRUTH will remain true no matter how we discover it we are not so important that our
beliefs/faith/thoughts/theories/hopes will change what is true. We can change our opinions
but that doesn't mean reality is altered because we accept or deny truth.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Am I too assume you agree with my statement?

"Thank you as I said evolutionists do not care about the big picture they have other people worrying about that. No need to work out how stars played apart in the process so they ignore everything except their piece of the puzzle.

The Big Bang does not address where everything comes from since the singular ...[text shortened]... n change our opinions
but that doesn't mean reality is altered because we accept or deny truth.

All well and good but when crunch time hits and bible god creation is 100% proved false, my guess is you would just dis the science anyway no matter the proof, for you creationism will be your answer no matter what is discovered along the way. I keep reminding you that we are in kindergarten when it comes to science so cut them some slack, don't keep dissing them like chiding a 6 year old for not knowing Astrophysics on a Phd level. We are not there yet and it may take another thousand years for such proof to come from science so you can breathe easy, nobody is going to usurp your faith in the near future. It still is just faith, nothing more.

Originally posted by sonhouse
All well and good but when crunch time hits and bible god creation is 100% proved false, my guess is you would just dis the science anyway no matter the proof, for you creationism will be your answer no matter what is discovered along the way. I keep reminding you that we are in kindergarten when it comes to science so cut them some slack, don't keep dissin ...[text shortened]... y, nobody is going to usurp your faith in the near future. It still is just faith, nothing more.

Why is it you spend your time not addressing what I have said but talking about me?

Originally posted by KellyJay
Why is it you spend your time not addressing what I have said but talking about me?

You do know all scientists focus most of their energy on their own discipline, right? They almost never look at the 'big picture'. An evolutionary biologist doesn't have to know how life started to do his work since he is interested in understanding the changes that have already taken place and understanding that, can he predict the next jump in evolution for that species. That's it for evolution. Why would he need to answer questions about life origins when his professional focus is on the here and now? Same with life origins science. And we of course don't have the answer. YET. I think we will have that answer and it may turn out there are several answers to origins questions but that of course is my speculation till it is shown one way or the other.

The other thing about life origins is they don't go into it pre-proposing life HAD to happen from hot mud and lightning. The issue is scientific truth. They would not suppress scientific evidence that clearly shows a creator is the only way it happened.

You get the difference? You are going into it with a biased opinion from the start, you only have one answer and you think that answers everything but it doesn't. Your answer doesn't say why some galaxies look like blobs and others look like spirals. Your answer doesn't say what a black hole is, your answer doesn't say why an electron is about 1/1800th the mass of a proton. So why didn't your god give us the encyclopedia galactica? It would have saved a lot of lives early on, like parasites in pigs or the plague coming from fleas in rats in Europe in the year 900. Why would your god give us these broad answers with nothing in detail? I assume under those conditions it would have realized humans were intelligent enough to understand basic things like parasites in pigs or disease bearing fleas in rats. So why would it hold out that very basic information that caused about 50 million deaths? Are we to assume your god WANTED those deaths? Especially since, as the creator, it would know every species and the interactions with all life forms, like don't touch a man-o-war and such. Why did it take 300 million deaths for us to figure out TB? Why wouldn't a loving god have made our immunse systems strong enough to resist TB in the first place? Are we then to assume your god WANTED it that way?

So why do you insist on scientists knowing ALL the answers and if they don't know ALL the answers they know NO answers? Do you accept the idea that each year science advances?

I assume you do. So I must also assume you don't think even after another thousand years of this present explosive growth of scientific knowledge, even after all that, in your mind, we will not be one iota closer to answering the big questions.

In that case you are just spouting dogma, that dogma being humans are WAY too stupid to figure things out by themselves and therefore MUST rely only on the one religion you subscribe to for the big answers even though there are literally hundreds of different versions answering the big questions, only YOUR religion is the true answer. Of course, Hindu's might have something to say about that but you don't care since you KNOW only your religion has the right answers.

And that seems to be the permenant repsponse of the christian set no matter what science proves if in fact they prove you do X, Y, and Z and you get first complex molecules and they can morph to RNA and that can morph to DNA and membranes can form out of clay which kick starts life. I am saying after they prove such. Obviously we are not there yet, getting closer year by year but it is still up in the air exactly how life started here on Earth if it was not from a creator.

Would you be willing to accept such proof if it came up, where a 10 year old could duplicate the experiments that leads to real life forms forming from mud and lightning or whatever, would you accept that is how life started?

Originally posted by sonhouse
You do know all scientists focus most of their energy on their own discipline, right? They almost never look at the 'big picture'. An evolutionary biologist doesn't have to know how life started to do his work since he is interested in understanding the changes that have already taken place and understanding that, can he predict the next jump in evolution f ...[text shortened]... ife forms forming from mud and lightning or whatever, would you accept that is how life started?

Yes, and my point because they spend their time focusing on their own discipline is all
anyone is doing is looking at a little part of the puzzle, not the big picture as I pointed out.
You can think grasping the evolutionary process shows how it all works, but by doing just
that is just like thinking you know what a zig saw puzzle complete picture is by only
looking at one piece out of a thousand piece box.

For you and anyone you have to assume it all works together and seeing holes or gaping
questions is meaningless, because that is NOT your field. Origins isn't answered and that
has been my big complaint against those that belittle creation, granted there are several
different creation stories, but none come from science, and I think that is because science
is honest, not because it is bad, faulty, or looking for an excuse.

I don't believe you are really being honest with yourself when you can claim evolution
shows what it does without addressing all the other factors. It is almost like you have
found two or three pieces that either fit or could fit and proclaim you have all the under
standing you need. You don't have a clue, even knowing all about electrons and
protons only shows you how important everything's make up is and how complex all of
the universe is.

The simplistic view of all of this is that is just fell into place and worked itself out so life
started, then continued without looking at every part of the universe to see how much of it
had to be just right. Having the ingredients for life in the same spot, at the same time,
under the right conditions is huge, then having them join properly, maintain the
connections, thrive, feed, reproduce, on a planet whose environment supported this in
a universe that supported all of this is huge. You have it as no big deal it was a roll of the
dice that was just bound to happen sooner or later.

The fallout of sin entering into the very good creation has left death yes, but if you are
going to complain about death while believing it is a natural part of life through evolution
that seems counterproductive. In creation we see that death is something to complain
about, in evolution it is a natural part of life and bemoaning it is to deny your own beliefs.

Originally posted by sonhouse
You do know all scientists focus most of their energy on their own discipline, right? They almost never look at the 'big picture'. An evolutionary biologist doesn't have to know how life started to do his work since he is interested in understanding the changes that have already taken place and understanding that, can he predict the next jump in evolution f ...[text shortened]... ife forms forming from mud and lightning or whatever, would you accept that is how life started?

Can a 10 year old produce mud out of nothing?

Originally posted by KellyJay
Yes, and my point because they spend their time focusing on their own discipline is all
anyone is doing is looking at a little part of the puzzle, not the big picture as I pointed out.
You can think grasping the evolutionary process shows how it all works, but by doing just
that is just like thinking you know what a zig saw puzzle complete picture is by ...[text shortened]...
about, in evolution it is a natural part of life and bemoaning it is to deny your own beliefs.

I am sure you are totally disappointed in how science works but they focus on their discipline. Seems to have worked out ok for space flight and computers and internet and medicines and it will work out for figuring out if life can happen without a creator. And the universe and such. I can't help it if you don't understand how science really works and believe me it is not some dude looking for the final answer. We get our knowledge bit by bit, when a young genius comes along, he or she may shake the foundations of science and we get a big jump in knowledge. So you are still dissing a child for not knowing rocket science when she is 5 years old. Don't you get it? Science is very young. Look at how many thousands of years the religious writers have had to fine tune their biblical writings and I can say this: If science can advance the next 300 years like it has the past 300 years we will know FAR more than we know now. Sorry, but that is how humans work.

Your answers are based on faith and that's all folks. We are basing our results on evidence and independent verification.

The religious set wants nothing to do with independent verification, they don't want you to question authority, they want you nice and docile and controllable and just SO coincidentally giving money to your church.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Does it explain the universe this all supposed to have taken place in, or just ignores the
full picture? How about how anything could find itself in a place where all the necessary
pieces of the puzzle just happen to all come together and work at the proper time to allow
for wisdom teeth?

The offside rule doesn't explain the universe either.
That too must be false.

Originally posted by sonhouse
I am sure you are totally disappointed in how science works but they focus on their discipline. Seems to have worked out ok for space flight and computers and internet and medicines and it will work out for figuring out if life can happen without a creator. And the universe and such. I can't help it if you don't understand how science really works and belie ...[text shortened]... ant you nice and docile and controllable and just SO coincidentally giving money to your church.

Why would I be disappointed it is what it is, and I've been agreeing with you on this is how
it works. I actually have some experience in computers due to it too, it isn't surprising on
the successes and failures.

I've not limited my discussion into just life, but how it all (the universe) appeared and then
lined up perfectly to have all ready to start life in the same spot, at the same time, have
it all mix properly, in a safe place and so on and on. I get you wish to belittle my
knowledge it makes your stance easier if you think I'm some how less than.

You run on and on about how science is, yet refuse to acknowledge we could come up
with bad theories about the past that cannot be proved wrong. You want to bad mouth
biblical writings because the truth in them is static, either they are true or they are not.

So your biggest argument is science is ever giving us new stuff, different ways of looking
at things so it must be better than religious writings that never change. Not a good
argument in my opinion since if God did create the universe and it was related to us
through these text, than no matter how much new knowledge you gain it will not give you
truth as long as it doesn't line up reality. Ever learning, but never coming to understanding
doesn't lead one to truth only a new set of beliefs as the data changes our perspectives.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Why would I be disappointed it is what it is, and I've been agreeing with you on this is how
it works. I actually have some experience in computers due to it too, it isn't surprising on
the successes and failures.

I've not limited my discussion into just life, but how it all (the universe) appeared and then
lined up perfectly to have all ready to star ...[text shortened]... nding
doesn't lead one to truth only a new set of beliefs as the data changes our perspectives.

The problem with such texts is this: we are living in perilous times and if a god did help with those texts, we need all the help we can get but instead we get such effects as 300 MILLION dead from one disease, TB. So lets assume bible god is true. It seems to have known about parasites in pigs so the edict comes out, don't eat pig. So how many lives did that save? A million? maybe. But here we have 300 times that many die and not a word from your precious god.

And that list goes on and on. 3 year old children getting cancer. It is up to us to promote the growth of science to stop those scourges since your god is doing absolutely nothing.
Yet your god is supposed to be omnipotent and therefore knew 300 million would die from TB before the universe was even created, so we have to think this god wanted it that way otherwise it would have done something about it.

The words of the bible are written from a human's perspective and human's cannot write like gods, as creative as they are.

I still say it is the biggest scam in human history.

Originally posted by sonhouse
The problem with such texts is this: we are living in perilous times and if a god did help with those texts, we need all the help we can get but instead we get such effects as 300 MILLION dead from one disease, TB. So lets assume bible god is true. It seems to have known about parasites in pigs so the edict comes out, don't eat pig. So how many lives did th ...[text shortened]... rite like gods, as creative as they are.

I still say it is the biggest scam in human history.

Seems like you want it both ways, one is all of those millions of deaths are just nature at
work in a godless world, there is neither a good or bad thing to say about them, because
death is a natural part of life no big deal no matter how they die.

Or you only want to take into account part of the scriptures that say this is a fallen world
and it is going to behave this way so you can blame God for it. Not taking into account
that it was never supposed to behave this way, but mankind brought sin into our lives,
but God is allowing our selfishness to play out for a short time then is going to END IT.

Evil is here, but not for long our choices still matter if we desire evil we can go there, it is
just us and others will pay a price for such choices.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Seems like you want it both ways, one is all of those millions of deaths are just nature at
work in a godless world, there is neither a good or bad thing to say about them, because
death is a natural part of life no big deal no matter how they die.

Or you only want to take into account part of the scriptures that say this is a fallen world
and it is g ...[text shortened]... if we desire evil we can go there, it is
just us and others will pay a price for such choices.

Good luck with all that.

Originally posted by sonhouse
Good luck with all that.

Good luck with what, your back and forth views on death if its good or bad?

Originally posted by KellyJay
Good luck with what, your back and forth views on death if its good or bad?

Where did you ever get the idea I thought death was good? Death is a part of life, if it doesn't happen the planet would be choked with living things and they would all die.

That doesn't mean 300 million deaths from TB is good. It was avoidable if your god had given us knowledge about it in advance. That didn't happen so there are two branches at least, to this tale, either there is a god and it wanted it that way or there is no god and we are on our own. Evidence, extremely strong evidence tells me there is no bible god, it was all made up by men with the desire to control people, build a political and military power base where the leaders just so coincidentally get all the big perks.

You can't tell me a god would say 'I am a jealous god' or men are worth 50 shekels but a woman is on a lower plane and is worth only 30.

Those are the words of men bent on control and it is a despicable thing to attribute those ghastly words to a god.

Those words are no more from a god than I am a god. I assure you I am not a god, last time I checked.

If you think otherwise then YOU call your god up and have it speak to me and all the other bible god atheists around the world.

A real god would have no need for hierarchy where one man is the intermediary to a god. That is nonsense for a real god could and would talk to each of us in his or her language at the same time on the entire planet but what do we have in your religion:
an obscure desert tribe comes up with the scam and sucks people in and builds a power base and then their minions are supposed to go out and spread the word but that never happened did it? Maybe half of the world gets the word. Some god you have there where half the world thousands of years later haven't heard the word and in fact new religions sprung up to stop the spread of that word, which is what will happen when humans are involved. The whole thing is a farce and a damn good one I might add, has billions of people totally buffaloed and in fear of this so-called god because it is a jealous god. Then there is original sin. What a gaff. The worse part of the scam. But then they throw in the kicker. Free will. Satan, the devil is after your soul. Nice touch.

But, whatever floats your boat. It's all man made but you would never use your birthright of intelligence to see through the scam will you.

Originally posted by sonhouse
Where did you ever get the idea I thought death was good? Death is a part of life, if it doesn't happen the planet would be choked with living things and they would all die.

That doesn't mean 300 million deaths from TB is good. It was avoidable if your god had given us knowledge about it in advance. That didn't happen so there are two branches at least, ...[text shortened]... n made but you would never use your birthright of intelligence to see through the scam will you.

I get the idea that death to you is bad even though you claim it is a natural part of life.
With respect to God telling us how to live to avoid such things, He has and we reject
His Word and suffer for it. From our sexual relations to how we behave with one an
another.

Evidence that tells you there is no God, what would that be? As I have been pointing out
to you the whole universe working together I believe shows God is real. What is your
evidence God isn't real, how badly people act toward one another? I see you have come
up with another (A real god would...) you quite the man who knows how a real god
should do things.