- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
Pretty close. If we go to the book of psalms 37:11 “the meek shall inherit the earth” so a definite group of people whose destiny would be to take possession of the earth.
It is good to point to "inherit the earth" here in this Psalm.
But you also have "reign on the earth" in Rev. 5:9,10.
"And they sing a new song, saying: You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, for You were slain and have purchased for God by Your blood men out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
And have made them a kingdom and priests of our God; and they will reign on the earth." (Rev. 5:9,10)
Those inheriting the earth include those who will reign on the earth.
JW say all the reigning on earth is done from Heaven.
The way I think we should see this is that the ones reigning on earth are a
govenrment on earth. But they are of a heavenly nature within.
Christ is called the "Rulers of the kings of the earth" (Rev. 1:5a)
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
Cont. with Medullah,
I think JW want to change that to be He is the Ruler of kings in heaven who rule
the earth. But these kings of the earth most likely are earthly kings.
They are joined to the heavens because the kingdom has its source and origin in heaven. This is specifically mentioned in the Gospel of Matthew which uses the phrase unique to it "the kingdom of the heavens."
The ones who inherit the earth include kings on the earth who govern with Christ the kingdom on the earth.
There is not a word in Revelation 14 about governing. Rather the emphasis is that the ones seen in heaven (144,000) are for the satisfaction of the Lamb and His Father. It is a chapter not on governing but on the Father's satisfaction in love with these early ripened ones, these Firstfruits.
I am concerned about the lack of heed given to the INDWELLING of God in them as the begetting Father showing they are in an "organic" relationship with God in life.
@medullah saidDefinitely. Appearances of faith and talk cannot fool a man / woman. How can anyone thing that they will fool God .
Matt 7:21 supports this with a clear warning. There will be those appearing to be faithful to the point if powerful works, who would be rejected because of their lawless (sinful) behaviour.
@sonship saidWhat a load of bull !!
Cont. with Medullah,
I think JW want to change that to be He is the Ruler of kings in heaven who rule
the earth. But this kings of the earth most likely are earthly kings.
They are joined to the heavens because the kingdom has its source and origin in heaven. This is specifically mentioned in the Gospel of Matthew which uses the phrase unique to it [ ...[text shortened]... them as the begetting Father showing they are in an "organic" relationship with God in life.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
We also know (let me know if you need this proving having to quote scripture and verse but trying to spare you the ordeal of reading an essay) from the time if Christ that there was a group who would go to heaven, but they would be incorruptible, as you have correctly alluded to. Check out 1 Cor 15:50 where it tells you that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom.
I have tried to show you that those who inherit the earth include those who govern on the earth.
You are saying the inheriters are on the earth, but the governors are in heaven.
No, the governors are on earth with a kingdom and an inward life which had its origin and source in heaven. But they reign on the earth.
The ones accompanying Christ down from heaven TO THE EARTH to reign are coming FROM heaven. They do not stay there but come as overcomers with Christ.
He reigns on the earth.
They reign with Him on the earth.
First they reign over their fallen natures during the church age to be qualified to accompany Christ as they have denied their soul life in order to follow Him.
By santification, transformation, conformation, and glorification they have followed Him.
So manning becomes divided with two paths, both of who have eternal life. The one bound for the earth, the other to form a governing group to abide in the heavens.
Are you saying NO people of Christ REIGN with Christ from the earth, on the earth? This cannot be. Christ is on the earth during this time reigning over the nations. WHY should His co-kings be in Heaven when He is on the earth?
Thier inward beings are connected with God in Heaven and therefore it is the kingdom of the heavens as Matthew repeats many times.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
What in Revelation 14 tells anybody that this group of Firstfruits never again come to the earth? What in Revelation 14 tells anybody something about a government in Heaven. In any part of chapter 14 is explained where is this explained?
I am opened to consider your evidence.
Five verses are about the Firstfruits - Rev. 14:1-5. Nothing is said about
a government.
I am not saying they may not participate in governing. But in the brief discription from verses 1 through 5 nothing is mentioned about this.
In the rest of the chapter nothing is mentioned about these 144,000 governing the earth from heaven.
Where do you get this idea of a special government on the earth conducted from a group in heaven ?
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
I wish you all not cling to the idea that Jesus LEAVES some humans in Heaven while HE comes to the earth to establish His millennial kingdom. This is not right.
Hebrews says the FIrstborn Son bringing with HIm into the inhabited earth those whom He is leading. He does not LEAVE them OUT of the inhabited earth.
"And when He brings again the Firstborn into the inhabited earth, He says, "And let all the angels of God worship Him." (Heb. 8:6)
This BRINGING of the Firstborn Son of God is also the Firstborn LEADING many sons into the glorious expression of deifified humanity.
"For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and through whom are all things, in LEADING many SONS into glory, to make the Author [Captain, Leader] of their salvation perfect through suffering."
If He LEAVES the many sons in Heaven how can He be LEADING them into glory? He would be LEAVING them in glory while HE goes somewhere else. Then He would be a perculiar Captain abandoning His followers to go elsewhere.
Drop the Jehovah's Witrnesses' erroneous eschatology on this.
@sonship saidThat is a petty matter as is all your doctrines. Your teachings fail to hit the nail on the head, fails to get to the heart of the issue, and encourage focusing on matters of no relevance.
I wish you all not cling to the idea that Jesus LEAVES some humans in Heaven while HE comes to the earth to establish His millennial kingdom. This is not right.
Hebrews says the FIrstborn Son bringing with HIm into the inhabited earth those whom He is leading. He does not LEAVE them OUT of the inhabited earth.
[b]"And when He brings again the Firstb ...[text shortened]... His followers to go elsewhere.
Drop the Jehovah's Witrnesses' erroneous eschatology on this.
A man can believe he is going to heaven
A man can believe he is going to stay in heaven
He can believe that he will have 36 virgins
He can even believe as you do, like a fool, that he is going to be deified.
Nothing is going to stop what God has ordained from happening.
The righteous and Good Samaritans, and all who keep the commandments are going to enter the Kingdom of God and rule with Christ for 1000 yrs, regardless of what they believe.
The sinful, and those who refuse to keep the commandments are going to be cast out.
@sonship saidYou are confusing the two classes Sonship, but you are right about the rulers, this I referred to.
@medullah
Pretty close. If we go to the book of psalms 37:11 “the meek shall inherit the earth” so a definite group of people whose destiny would be to take possession of the earth.
It is good to point to "inherit the earth" here in this Psalm.
But you also have "reign on the earth" in Rev. 5:9,10.
"And they sing a ...[text shortened]... ly nature within.
Christ is called the [b]"Rulers of the kings of the earth" (Rev. 1:5a)
So one group, the heavenly class goes to heaven (spirit anointed). You’ll find that many Christians overlook the fact that this is a “little flock”, not everyone is bound for heaven.
The second takes possession of the earth (the great crowd).
@sonship saidI didn’t mention the book of revelation.
Cont. with Medullah,
I think JW want to change that to be He is the Ruler of kings in heaven who rule
the earth. But these kings of the earth most likely are earthly kings.
They are joined to the heavens because the kingdom has its source and origin in heaven. This is specifically mentioned in the Gospel of Matthew which uses the phrase unique to it ...[text shortened]... them as the begetting Father showing they are in an "organic" relationship with God in life.
I just agreed that there is a ruling heavenly class. They are the first fruits. Post Christ. Not even John the Baptist goes to heaven. You have to be of the New Covenant (read up on the last supper).
@sonship saidNo it isn’t right, and I have not said that it is.
I wish you all not cling to the idea that Jesus LEAVES some humans in Heaven while HE comes to the earth to establish His millennial kingdom. This is not right.
You have put forward a concept is if I have said it, which I haven’t, then attempted to correct your own proposition.
@medullah saidI'm not so much disagreeing with you because I think we sort of see some things differently. Neither of us needs necessarily be wrong, but like you said why generate an ordeal by getting entangled in the quotations of scripture over theological questions ad nauseam. Suffice it to say our individual systematic theological positions may not in all points be the same.
Pretty close. If we go to the book of psalms 37:11 “the meek shall inherit the earth” so a definite group of people whose destiny would be to take possession of the earth. We also know (let me know if you need this proving having to quote scripture and verse but trying to spare you the ordeal of reading an essay) from the time of Christ that there was a group who would go to ...[text shortened]... rnal life. The one bound for the earth, the other to form a governing group to abide in the heavens.
I see, in scripture, two groups as it were. The one made up of Kingdom saints that will occupy the earth during the Kingdom age. The other is the Church, "the Body of Christ", whose "inheritance" is in the heavens.
How, who, what, where and why, IMO, is in the hands of the Almighty. Beyond that I can't be too dogmatic.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
You are confusing the two classes Sonship, but you are right about the rulers, this I referred to.
So one group, the heavenly class goes to heaven (spirit anointed). You’ll find that many Christians overlook the fact that this is a “little flock”, not everyone is bound for heaven.
The second takes possession of the earth (the great crowd).
These sentences do not seem to deal with what I wrote in detail.
It goes by the JW playbook - "Show Christians that not everyone saved goes
to heaven."
Maybe you think I care about that.
I don't know. Maybe you don't.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
Medullah,
So one group, the heavenly class goes to heaven (spirit anointed).
I am not sure why "spirit" is in small letters when the Holy Spirit, the
One who anoints those attached to Christ, is God.
My ground for saying this is 2 Cor. 1:20 - "But the One who firmly attaches us with you unto Christ and has ANOINTED us is God, He who has also sealed us and given the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge."
Here the Apostles have been "firmly attach[ed]" to Christ WITH the believers (in Corinth by representation). Certainly not exclusively the believers in Corinth. The Corinthian Christians were attached to Christ. All believers have been so firmly attached to Christ.
And all believers (though some taking advantage of it and some less so) have been ANOINTED by the Third Person of the Triune God, the Holy Spirit.
" . . . the One who firmly attaches us with you unto Christ and has anointed us is God."
Every Christian has the pledge of the Spirit as well as the attachment to Christ and the anointing of God. The Spirit within is the pledge, the down payment, the garuantee and foretaste of a much fuller taste to come.
" He who has also sealed us and given the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge." (v.22)
Before the matter of WHERE they go or WHERE they are - either on earth or in heaven, FIRST things FIRST - All believers in Christ are attached to Christ, and that "firmly". The apostles are firmly attached. And the believers whom they serve are ALSO firmly attached with them to Christ.
All together share in the anointing God has accomplished on them.
'
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
So one group, the heavenly class goes to heaven (spirit anointed).
Is anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ he is not of Him.
"Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him [Christ]" (Rom. 8:9b)
So how can you divide the Christians into those anointed by the Spirit and those not anointed by the Spirit? If they have the Spirit of Christ they have Christ. If they have not the Spirit of Christ they are not of Him.
Your JW playbook wants you to believe SOME Christians are with spirit and some not. But this possessing of the Spirit IS the defining matter designating them as Christians and being firmly attached by God to Christ.
The playbook of JWs is wrong there.