Somebody help me...

Originally posted by KellyJay
No, not what I'm getting at, I want to you describe reality for me! If you
deny Jesus Christ now, then even though you professed it in the past, that
past profession was based upon an untruth, correct if your current beliefs
are true.
Kelly

Surely the point you ought to be making, as a Christian, is that I was right when I was a Christian? We are talking about beliefs ~ your beliefs and my beliefs. The fact that I am now an ex-Christian does not alter the fact that in the past I believed what I believed was right and true. Of course, I am not a Christian any more, and I've made that clear to you over and over again. But you've accepted that I was a Christian in the past. So surely you believe that I was right to believe what I believed when I was a Christian? After all, unlike me, your beliefs have not changed.

Originally posted by FMF
Surely the point you ought to be making, as a Christian, is that I was right when I was a Christian? We are talking about beliefs ~ your beliefs and my beliefs. The fact that I am now an ex-Christian does not alter the fact that in the past I believed what I believed was right and true. Of course, I am not a Christian any more, and I've made that clear to you ov ...[text shortened]... eve what I believed when I was a Christian? After all, unlike me, your beliefs have not changed.

Over and over I told you I believe you! You claimed to be a Christian!
We can write that in stone and call it a day! NOT THE POINT!

The past that I'm talking about where you claimed to be a Christian was
either true or not. If true, then Jesus was in your life, if false He was not.
I'm assuming you want to say since you no longer accept Jesus as real,
it stands to reason He was never really in your life no matter what your
old beliefs were!

Now if you want to tell me that Jesus was in your life, then He went away
for everyone after you stopped believing in Him, well that is some power
you have there!

Now if you want to tell me that Jesus was never in your life, because that
would be impossible due to how you understand the universe now, that
would be something too.

Now if you want to say all belief systems are as meaningless as the next
since they all happen between the ears, than that too would be something.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
The past that I'm talking about where you claimed to be a Christian was
either true or not. If true, then Jesus was in your life, if false He was not.

It is true that I was a Christian. I am not lying. When I was a Christian I sincerely believed that Christ was in my life. The fact that I do not think Christ is in my life now ~ or in yours for that matter ~ does not mean that when I believed he WAS in my life that I was faking it, just as I do not believe you are faking your Christian beliefs now.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Let me ask you a simple question, do you believe some people who claim
to be Christians actually don't know the Lord, and do not really follow Jesus?
Kelly

Certainly.

Don't you think that some Christians who claim to be ex Christians could be those who have fallen away?

Originally posted by KellyJay
Let me ask you a simple question, do you believe some people who claim
to be Christians actually don't know the Lord, and do not really follow Jesus?
Kelly

I still like an answer to this please, instead of more deflection.

"What is then the difference between a Christian who has fallen away and FMF who claims to be a Christian who is no longer a Christian? What would a Christian who has fallen away talk like - would thay say "I still believe" or would they say "I no longer believe"?"

Originally posted by divegeester
Certainly.

Don't you think that some Christians who claim to be ex Christians could be those who have fallen away?

Yes
KJ

Originally posted by divegeester
I still like an answer to this please, instead of more deflection.

"What is then the difference between a Christian who has fallen away and FMF who claims to be a Christian who is no longer a Christian? What would a Christian who has fallen away talk like - would thay say "I still believe" or would they say "I no longer believe"?"

Pages upon pages of him and I discussing this doesn't clear it up to you
nothing will that I say.
Kelly

Originally posted by FMF
It is true that I was a Christian. I am not lying. When I was a Christian I sincerely believed that Christ was in my life. The fact that I do not think Christ is in my life now ~ or in yours for that matter ~ does not mean that when I believed he WAS in my life that I was faking it, just as I do not believe you are faking your Christian beliefs now.

Now we are getting some where! You don't think Christ is in my life now,
or anyone else! That was what I was pushing you to admit! It wasn't real
to you, so it is very easy to deny it cannot be real for anyone else! Since
you go on and on how you were just like me, you assume Christ isn't a part
of my life or anyone else'.

You admit now Christ wasn't in your life, and Jesus isn't in my life now!
That is the stance you now have! Granted you did not always have that
belief, but now you do! Now when you look back in time with your view
that Jesus isn't real now, you have to admit according to you Jesus never
was for you, even though you once thought it true.

If Christ wasn't in your life for all of those years (truly) since according to
you now, what were you doing if not faking it? If He was not there, what
was going on in your life? You reject Jesus was there now so something
wasn't real according to you was taking place, were you tricked?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Now we are getting some where! You don't think Christ is in my life now,
or anyone else! That was what I was pushing you to admit!

I have told you that I do not subscribe to the claims that Christians make about Jesus HUNDREDS of times, KellyJay. "Admit"? I have openly willingly repeatedly honestly told you that I am an ex-Christian and do not believe the same things as you about God and Jesus over and over and over and over again.

Originally posted by FMF
I have told you that I do not subscribe to the claims that Christians make about Jesus HUNDREDS of times, KellyJay. "Admit"? I have openly willingly repeatedly honestly told you that I am an ex-Christian and do not believe the same things as you about God and Jesus over and over and over and over again.

I've admitted every time you made the confession you used to claim to be
a Christian. Not sure what your issue is!

My issue with you is, you believe Christ to not be real with me or anyone
else. Moreover, you assume I'm in the same boat you were in when right
before you admitted what you had was not real.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
If Christ wasn't in your life for all of those years (truly) since according to
you now, what were you doing if not faking it?

I wasn't faking it. Are you faking it now? No. Well I wasn't faking it then. Surely as a Christian you should be telling me I was right to believe that I had Christ in my life?

Originally posted by KellyJay
My issue with you is, you believe Christ to not be real with me or anyone
else.

Well I am not a Christian any more, if that's what you are getting at. But I have told you this many times before.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Now when you look back in time with your view that Jesus isn't real now, you have to admit according to you Jesus never was for you, even though you once thought it true.

What I believe now does not alter the fact that I believed I had Christ in my life when I was Christian. You believing you have Christ in your life is what makes you a Christian. The same belief made me a Christian. The fact that I am an ex-Christian now cannot alter the fact that I was a Christian for almost thirty years.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I've admitted every time you made the confession you used to claim to be a Christian. Not sure what your issue is!

My issue with you is, you believe Christ to not be real with me or anyone
else. Moreover, you assume I'm in the same boat you were in when right
before you admitted what you had was not real.
Kelly

I have not made any "confession". I have simply stated the fact that I used to be a Christian. You keep posting as if you have no idea what it means. You also keep posting as if you have no idea what it means for someone's beliefs to change. You also keep posting as if you think that a change in beliefs can somehow alter a person's history of beliefs. Me being an ex-Christian now cannot alter the fact that I was a Christian in the past.

Originally posted by FMF
I wasn't faking it. Are you faking it now? No. Well I wasn't faking it then. Surely as a Christian you should be telling me I was right to believe that I had Christ in my life?

You now claim it couldn't be true do you not, because Jesus just doesn't
do that? So what are you left with? If it wasn't real, if there was no truth to
it, if you deny it was real now, than what were you doing?

This is the part I've been asking you about, you deny now it cannot be real
for me or anyone else, yet you claim you were not faking. Okay, you were
not faking, but it wasn't real according to you, so you were doing what?
Kelly