29 Dec 18
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@sonship saidYou know sonship, if you just read what I was posting with an open mind you would at least understand even if you didn’t agree.
@divegeester
Are you saying that when Jesus was born that was the beginning of the life of the Son of God ?
Imagine for a second that God was always one person not three, how would he then reveal himself to man?
He would become a son himself, an avatar (although as I said I dislike that adjective) of himself and enter the world. He is eternal even as the son because he is the same one person.
So he becomes is own father on a day that is called “today” by creating a human who is perfect and the “exact representation of his being” as it says in Colossians, and he sends himself to save us. Because he loves us.
When the work is complete this office of sonship is no longer required. The spiritual personage that is God who is called Jesus, is one and the same.
This is how Jesus can be the alpha and the omega (when clearly Jehovah is) because they are one and the same
This is how the “son “ in Isaiah is also called “Mighty God” and “councillor” (spirit) because the ONE person is all three and all that is attributed to the son is attributed to the father because the are the same person.
This is why the son can “hand over” all things to the father without contradicting Isaiah saying of his authority there shall be no end.
Jesus is God, not part of God, he is God revealed. One person. I hope this makes sense even if you do not agree with it.
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29 Dec 18
@divegeester saidThat would mean of course God cried out to himself when He was on the cross, which to be honest is rather perplexing.
You know sonship, if you just read what I was posting with an open mind you would at least understand even if you didn’t agree.
Imagine for a second that God was always one person not three, how would he then reveal himself to man?
He would become a son himself, an avatar (although as I said I dislike that adjective) of himself and enter the world. He is eternal ev ...[text shortened]... t of God, he is God revealed. One person. I hope this makes sense even if you do not agree with it.
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29 Dec 18
Imagine for a second that God was always one person not three,
I do not have to imagine that God is one. He has told us so.
But He has also said "We will come to him and make an abode with him" (John 14:23) Speaking of the one God and speaking of the Father and the Son.
how would he then reveal himself to man?
We see God has in the Bible. And it is very mysterious.
I have a hard time trusting anyone who thinks the revelation of God is not mysterious.
IT involves us believing things which we cannot reconcile completely with our minds. You apparently disagree.
He would become a son himself,
For sure the Son is God Himself. Otherwise He would not say "Before Abraham came into being I AM"
But to do full justice to the mystery we cannot not notice the relationship He has with His Father while on earth.
He is sent by the Father.
He puts aside His will for the Father's.
He petitions the Father.
He makes request of the Father.
He who is God become a man is loved by the Father, and He loves the Father.
The Father sends Him, is with Him, reveals and speaks to Him, raises Him. He even says He is forsaken by God "My God, my God, Why have you forsaken Me?"
To do full justice to the revelation of the Bible we should embrace this relationship of two "Persons" within the one God. One has to work hard at not recognizing this. So it is better to believe and accept the mystery.
an avatar (although as I said I dislike that adjective)
You use a word to explain something mysterious.
The brothers of old did so with a word - trinity.
I say it is justified.
I don't know much about "avatars".
of himself and enter the world. He is eternal even as the son because he is the same one person.
So you are now saying what I have been saying which you previously fought against it seems. The Son is eternal.
You mentioned "no eternal Son mentioned in the Bible". But now you appear to ACKNOWLEDGE the FACT Of an eternal Son of God.
So he becomes is own father on a day that is called “today”
We who say God is three-one are justified. He and His Father are the divine "We" who both will come to make an abode with the lover of Jesus.
Christ spoke this.
It was not inserted into His mouth fictitiously by theologians wanting to puzzle everybody so they could have a difficult doctrine.
No council put those words into Christ's mouth. And when the Deity of Jesus Christ was attacked from all sides and different sides, a term to express the divine "We" coming in the Divine Holy Spirit arose - Triune God.
He is "We" - One.
He is "Us" - One.
He is "Their" - One.
As Christians the Son indwells us and intercedes STILL to the Father.
" ... It is Christ Jesus who died and, rather, who was raised, who is also at the right hand of God, who also INTERCEDES for us." (Rom. 8:34)
This is taking place in the church age - now. And His interceding is perpetual because He Always LIVES TO INTERCEDE for His people.
"But He, because He abides forever, has His priesthood unalterable. Hence also He is able to save to the uttermost those who come forward to God through HIm, since He lives always to intercede for them.
For such a High Priest was also fitting to us, holy, guileless, undefilted, separated from sinners and having become higher than the heavens." (Heb. 7:24-26)
This Priesthood of the Son of God is perpetual and eternal. It is not an "office" relinquished. And if this is so the One God is eternally manifested as Father and Priestly Son.
How can you pretend that this is not beyond the human mind to completely explain. I choose to bow to the revelation that the One God is simultaneously Father - Son - Holy Spirit.
I do not believe in three Gods.
by creating a human who is perfect and the “exact representation of his being” as it says in Colossians, and he sends himself to save us. Because he loves us.
That is all accepted. But why sweep under the rug that He and His Father manifest simultaneously two distinct "persons". I say distinct but not separated. Each one lives within the other.
Yet all three are on the scene simultaneously at the same time.
For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father, Of whom every famimly in the heavens and on earth is named, That He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit into the inner man, That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith ... " (Eph. 3:14-17)
Three - one.
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all." (2 Cor. 13:14)
When the work is complete this office of sonship is no longer required.
As long as we live by the eternal life the Son is required. That is eternity.
In this the love of God was manifested among us, that God sent His only begotten Son into the world that we might have life and live through Him." (1 John 4:9)
The Christians received life through Him.
The Christians can live through Him.
There is no termination of living through the Son.
For eternity the "office" of the Son being the life of the saved will be.
In Him IS the eternal life. And He IS the life.
Any talk of a termination of the Son's person or priesthood or "office" is wrong.
The spiritual personage that is God who is called Jesus, is one and the same.
Have no fear that I believe that the Word was with God and the Word was God. Both relationships were eternal. They will be eternal into the future
This is how Jesus can be the alpha and the omega (when clearly Jehovah is) because they are one and the same
I am very happy to confess Jesus Christ the man is God.
This is how the “son “ in Isaiah is also called “Mighty God” and “councillor” (spirit) because the ONE person is all three and all that is attributed to the son is attributed to the father because the are the same person.
The child is called Mighty God.
And the Son is called eternal Father.
But we have to recognize distinction. When the Son died on the cross the Father did not. So what can we do? We can worship God. We can respond with awe and worship.
I don't think you should regard your "avatar" explanation as somehow better then three-oneness to attempt to utter the mystery of the Divine "We" who is God coming into us.
This is why the son can “hand over” all things to the father without contradicting Isaiah saying of his authority there shall be no end.
Jesus is God, not part of God, he is God revealed. One person. I hope this makes sense even if you do not agree with it.
There is truth to saying one God. There is truth of course in saying Jesus is God incarnate. In saying that the "office" of the Son is temporary when the "sons" reign forever and ever, cannot be right.
And since in the Son IS the eternal life, any thought of the Son being no more or functioning no longer or being obsolete is wrong. The Son IS the eternal life.
Thankyou though for laboring on an answer - which I read carefully and more than once.
29 Dec 18
@ghost-of-a-duke saidThat doctrine of oneness is a bit laughable. Jesus was on the cross not the Father
That would mean of course God cried out to himself when He was on the cross, which to be honest is rather perplexing.
nor the Holy Spirit, it was when Jesus took on all of our guilt that Jesus was
forsaken by the Father. That would be very difficult if they were the same being.
Mark 15:34
And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
When Jesus was being baptized both the Father and Spirit of God were both there,
not in the body of Jesus who had at that time humbled Himself to be a man.
Matthew 3:16-17 English Standard Version (ESV)
16 And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; 17 and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”
Because we are sons of God now when we have accepted God that God sends us
His Son into our hearts so we can now cry Abba Father! You don't send yourself
into anything, you simply go. There is a distinction between the Father, Son, and
the Holy Spirit each are God in complete harmony, and each are their own person.
There are things that the Father does the Son doesn't, there are things that the
Son does the Father doesn't, and the same is said for the Holy Spirit. This could
not be true if they were all the same person called three different names all being
God. While these things are all being done by different beings, it is said all these
things are done by God.
John 5:22-24 English Standard Version (ESV)
22 For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. 24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
As in John 3 the Father sent the Son, Here in John 14 the Holy Spirit whom the
Father will send in the Son's name, will come to us teaching us. Again the
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit not three God's but One in perfect harmony.
John 14:25-27 English Standard Version (ESV)
25 “These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid.
29 Dec 18
@ghost-of-a-duke saidNo. The Son cried out to the Father.
That would mean of course God cried out to himself when He was on the cross, which to be honest is rather perplexing.
Three distinct personalities. One God. Don't try to figure it out. Not everything is explained by God to man. There are just some things a finite mind can't comprehend. God tells what we need to know when we need to know it. I have no problem being finite, and I have no problem with God being infinite.
2 Peter 1:2,3
Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
29 Dec 18
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@kellyjay saidWhereas God and his actual begotten son who is a different person to him plus a spirit who is also another person talking to each other when they are actually one person is completely intuitive.
That doctrine of oneness is a bit laughable.
29 Dec 18
@ghost-of-a-duke saidHis humanity cried out to his spirit.
That would mean of course God cried out to himself when He was on the cross, which to be honest is rather perplexing.
29 Dec 18
@sonship saidI’m aware that you don’t agree with me sonship.
@divegeester
Imagine for a second that God was always one person not three,
I do not have to imagine that God is one. He has told us so.
But He has also said "We will come to him and make an abode with him" (John 14:23) Speaking of the one God and speaking of the Father and the Son.
[quote]
how would he then reveal himself to man? [/quote ...[text shortened]... nal life.
Thankyou though for laboring on an answer - which I read carefully and more than once.
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29 Dec 18
@secondson saidI agree that there are some things a finite mind can't comprehend, for instance, that we live in an infinite and uncreated universe.
No. The Son cried out to the Father.
Three distinct personalities. One God. Don't try to figure it out. Not everything is explained by God to man. There are just some things a finite mind can't comprehend. God tells what we need to know when we need to know it. I have no problem being finite, and I have no problem with God being infinite.
2 Peter 1:2,3
Grace and peac ...[text shortened]... rtain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
Don't try to figure it out.
29 Dec 18
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Here is something to consider:
Sonship believes that because of what I believe about the godhead that I am not saved (his church statement of believe claims this). I don’t claim that he is not saved because of his belief in a trinity. The former is cultish, the latter isn’t.
Not sure what KellyJay believes matter on this as he is usually too furtive to say.
SecondJosephw just really really holes I’m going to hell because I deserve it.
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29 Dec 18
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I agree that there are some things a finite mind can't comprehend, for instance, that we live in an infinite and uncreated universe.
How come then it hasn't worn down to black, cold, ashes drifting apart in the infinite vacuum of space yet? I mean it should have long since run down, dissipated, dissolved, disordered and burn out according to the scientific second law of thermodynamics?
You do not believe in the second law of thermodynamics ?