The Garden of Eden

Originally posted by divegeester
No. Here is what you posted:

Originally posted by lemon lime
[b]"the day" means the day he eats of that fruit. It doesn't mean he will die on that day. Cause and effect. If you do this, then that will surely happen. If I say you will surely die, it doesn't mean you will die right now. It just means that it will surely happen.

Are you ...[text shortened]... that when God said "on THIS day you will surely die" that he was being in some way allegorical?[/b]

What translation are you using where it says, "...on THIS day you will surely
die" can you point me to it? I don't this I have seen an all CAPS like that.
Kelly

Originally posted by divegeester
You obviously do care or you wouldn't spend pages and pages contesting your position. I have read genesis probably a hundred times btw. And the tree is symbolic as I've demonstrated several repeated times in this thread.

The scripture says it is a tree, what do you want from me. It says it is a
tree, I take it that it was a tree.

If you want to change the scripture to make it mean something other than
what it says, by all means do so, it isn't me you answer to.
Kelly

Originally posted by moonbus
Rather a lot depends on whether Adam was created mortal or immortal.

EDIT: If he was created mortal, then threatening him with death at some vague time in the far distant future if he eates the forbidden fruit makes no sense and doesn't jive with the statement that he will surely die "in the day" he eats the fruit.

EDIT 2: correct me if I mis-remember ...[text shortened]... _ tree, the tree of life, that would have made Adam immortal ("like us", meaning like the gods)?

I believe eating from the other tree would have made him immoral yes, which
was why God stopped them from doing so in their sinful state.

For man the wages of sin was death, until sin there would not have been a
death.
Kelly

Originally posted by divegeester
Death entered through sin, so until there was sin there was no death. By default Adam was immortal. This brings the thread back to my OP about the soil in the garden; contemporary soil consists of organic matter from decaying plants and animals etc. But without death the soil must have been different in the garden. Most here who have been claiming that ...[text shortened]... The tree of life supposedly sustaining itself through death. Slightly bizarre to say the least.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, not all.
We know that with man there wasn't going to be death until sin, but did that
mean for the rest of creation too? I don't know! Even if they had not sinned,
and they ate from the tree of life, wouldn't the fruit that they ate have died?
Kelly

Originally posted by moonbus
See my second edit, posted after your response.

Were all the animals and plants in the garden immortal? If not, then their remains fertilized the soil.

I agree, I'm not at all sure they were. I don't think anything says so one way
or the other, but I don't see it working out that they could be, but I don't
know is the best I can do.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I believe eating from the other tree would have made him immoral yes, which
was why God stopped them from doing so in their sinful state.

For man the wages of sin was death, until sin there would not have been a
death.
Kelly

If, as you say, Adam was created immortal, then Gen2:17 makes the following sense: "if you eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, you will become mortal (at the time you eat, i.e., in the very same day)"--not necessarily that you will die on that day, but you will surely die someday because your nature will have changed on that day from immortal to mortal. Now that does make literal sense.

So now, what about the _second_ tree, the tree of life, which was also forbidden to him (lest Adam become "like us," presumably meaning "like us _gods_" who are immortal). What did that tree have to offer Adam if he ate of it, assuming he was already immortal? That he might become immortal _again_ after having eaten of the first tree and become mortal?

Originally posted by moonbus
If, as you say, Adam was created immortal, then Gen2:17 makes the following sense: "if you eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, you will become mortal (at the time you eat, i.e., in the very same day)"--not necessarily that you will die on that day, but you will surely die someday because your nature will have changed on that day from immortal to m ...[text shortened]... l? That he might become immortal _again_ after having eaten of the first tree and become mortal?

I don't think they were forbidden to eat of the 2nd tree until sin.
Kelly

Originally posted by moonbus
If, as you say, Adam was created immortal, then Gen2:17 makes the following sense: "if you eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, you will become mortal (at the time you eat, i.e., in the very same day)"--not necessarily that you will die on that day, but you will surely die someday because your nature will have changed on that day from immortal to m ...[text shortened]... l? That he might become immortal _again_ after having eaten of the first tree and become mortal?

this again is an inaccuracy, there is a difference between possessing the quality of immortality and having the prospect of living forever. If you are immortal you cannot die, wheres if you have the prospect of living forever it can certainly be taken away by the one who granted it.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
this again is an inaccuracy, there is a difference between possessing the quality of immortality and having the prospect of living forever. If you are immortal you cannot die, wheres if you have the prospect of living forever it can certainly be taken away by the one who granted it.

Hypothesis: two conditions are necessary to be / become like the gods: 1. immortality, and 2. knowledge of good and evil. Adam, in the default state, possess the prospect of living forever, which is almost immortality but not irreversibly so, and Adam does not possess the other condition either, knowledge of good and evil. God forbids Adam to acquire the 2d condition, knowledge of good and evil, on pain of losing what he already had (the prospect of living forever). Adam disobeys, acquires the 2d condition, knowledge of good and evil. He thereby loses his prospect of living forever ("you shall surely die" someday). Having acquired knowledge of good and evil, he cannot lose this. So, to prevent Adam from acquiring the 1st god-like condition, immortality and thereby regaining what he had lost (and more) in acquring the 2d condition, God banishes Adam from the Garden.

Then a few thousand years later, God appears on earth in the form of Jesus, and restores man's prospect of living forever.

Is that the programme?

Originally posted by moonbus
Hypothesis: two conditions are necessary to be / become like the gods: 1. immortality, and 2. knowledge of good and evil. Adam, in the default state, possess the prospect of living forever, which is almost immortality but not irreversibly so, and Adam does not possess the other condition either, knowledge of good and evil. God forbids Adam to acquire the 2d ...[text shortened]... h in the form of Jesus, and restores man's prospect of living forever.

Is that the programme?

not its not immortality, if you are immortal you cannot suffer destruction, clearly Adam was not immortal and there is not a single Biblical reference which alludes to the idea that he was. Its really quite simple.

I don’t believe that Christ is God nor do i think that the Bible teaches that he is, for the entire reason that Christ came to the earth was to offer his life as a propitiatory sacrifice. God cannot die and God cannot be seen by men, Christ died and was seen by many people, even simple logic can be utilized to refute the assertion.

Originally posted by KellyJay
What translation are you using where it says, "...on THIS day you will surely
die" can you point me to it? I don't this I have seen an all CAPS like that.
Kelly

I'm quoting Lemon Lime so will need to ask him.

Originally posted by KellyJay
The scripture says it is a tree, what do you want from me. It says it is a
tree, I take it that it was a tree.

Is everything that is in scripture literal? For example do you believe the feet of clay and other symbolisms in Daniel as real feet of clay?

Originally posted by KellyJay
We know that with man there wasn't going to be death until sin, but did that mean for the rest of creation too?

Are you saying that death was present in creation before Adam's sin?

Originally posted by divegeester
Are you saying that death was present in creation before Adam's sin?

what kind of symbolic christian are you?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
what kind of symbolic christian are you?

I don't understand your question.