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11 Oct 19
@suzianne saidFeel free to explain this.
"Contains allegories" and "not to be considered as literal" are not necessarily the same thing.
I maintain that it is a matter of degree.
Note: I wondered how long it would be before you finally piled into this thread with nothing except a lame attempt to help your buddy sonship untwist his knickers from the knot he’s got them into to.
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11 Oct 19
@philokalia saidThat’s because you are obviously intellectually lazy and you don’t bother reading threads about the topics you discuss and by the posters you debate.
I have never actually seen him justify his position in regards to what the Bible says so there is no way for me to be convinced of the arguments he brings up here.
It's like we have only seen half of the rationale.
Dive, if you want to save me from a terrible, false doctrine that is hostile and potentially turns other people away from Christ, you should put s ...[text shortened]... u, and I do not believe in hell... What is the point? You aren't saving anyone from anything, right?
You are frequently claiming that “I’ve never seen so-and-so justify/explain XYZ” ...
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11 Oct 19
@kellyjay saidYou have claimed that ALL of Revelation is literal, so I’m not sure how you can post this pile of garbage about “language” (whatever that means).
The thing that should be taken into account regardless of how one thinks of any text is that language matters, even an allegory is spoken in scripture with intent and should never be ignored. Jesus spoke to many about the Kingdom of God, and He didn't always talk about it in literal terms. The truths of it were still conveyed in what He said. Scriptures are filled with all m ...[text shortened]... out in the Word of God because we need to hear about it, not so we can cast it aside as meaningless.
You need to face up to the fact, and it is a fact, that something cannot be literal AND allegorical, literal AND metaphorical. Trying to fluff it as sort of in a round about way say they are (which is what you are weakly trying to do in your post) is intellectually dishonest.
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11 Oct 19
5 edits
@divegeester
Did you start reading the book of Revelation at 1:1 ?
I did.
I think the first time I read through from 1:1 on into the book was probably about 1970. And on my own. Since then I have always thought and told others that signs, symbols, poetic speech is found in that book.
That is nothing new you know.
Zechariah, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Daniel ... all contributory TO Revelation contain signs and symbolism also.
Even John has signs.
Did you ever have an open, frank, and honest conversation with Jesus Christ, telling Him that there is something in the Bible that you don't like ? Did you ever go to God and confess that you hated something that was said in His word?
You know, God always receives an honest prayer. Regardless of how you feel about your victory in debating me or not, be honest with God. Come into His presence with thanksgiving.
And be honest about what is in your heart.
PS If there is nothing in the Bible that causes you to say "I WISH that was not there!" I don't trust you.
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11 Oct 19
1 edit
Sonship has admitted that Revelation contains allegories.
LOL!
What else have I admitted? I think it is high time that I admitted to you all that I believe Jesus is the Son of God.
FINALLY!
I tell you, I am so glad to finally get that off my chest.
My God is the man Jesus.
11 Oct 19
@divegeester saidThe word of God comes to us not so we can justify ourselves but by it we can come to the truth, and that is Jesus Christ. It doesn’t come to by the will of man, and because of that we either seek God’s truth in the texts or we are inserting our own.
Sonship has admitted that Revelation contains allegories. I’m happy with that because it means that it’s all up for interpretation.
After all the writer is in a dream state having visions ...don’t forget that!
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11 Oct 19
1 edit
You need to face up to the fact, and it is a fact, that something cannot be literal AND allegorical, literal AND metaphorical.
Think that over carefully.
The ark of the covenant? Did it have an actual existence? Was there allegory associated with that object?
Noah's ark. Did it have an actual existence? Was there allegory associated with it?
The promise land of Canaan. Was it an actual geographical location? Does it have allegorical significance to it?
The Red Sea. Is it an actual place on the planet? Did it not have allegorical significance to it?
The cross of Christ. Was it not an actual object? Does it not have allegorical significance to it?
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11 Oct 19
@sonship saidHaha, there is no going back sonship.
@divegeester
You need to face up to the fact, and it is a fact, that something cannot be literal AND allegorical, literal AND metaphorical.
Think that over carefully.
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11 Oct 19
@kellyjay saidI’m aware that you believe that all the multi headed monsters being ridden by whores and giant locusts with lions heads and lakes of fire and sulphur and horsemen of the apocalypse... are all literally real. But according to sonship some of this stuff is allegorical.
The word of God comes to us not so we can justify ourselves but by it we can come to the truth, and that is Jesus Christ. It doesn’t come to by the will of man, and because of that we either seek God’s truth in the texts or we are inserting our own.
Which is what I asked you about.
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11 Oct 19
@sonship saidNothing. I’m happy that you have admitted that Revelation contains allegories.
@divegeester
Sonship has admitted that Revelation contains allegories.
What else have I admitted?
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11 Oct 19
@sonship saidI’m not sure what we are discussing...
@divegeester
Did you start reading the book of Revelation at 1:1 ?
I did.
I think the first time I read through from 1:1 on into the book was probably about 1970. And on my own. Since then I have always thought and told others that signs, symbols, poetic speech is found in that book.
That is nothing new you know.
[b]Zechariah, Ezekiel, Isaia ...[text shortened]... g[/i] in the Bible that causes you to say "I WISH that was not there!" I don't trust you.
My pitch has always been that Revelation is entirely allegorical, metaphorical, symbolism.
You agree that it contains allegories so I’m happy that we agree.
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11 Oct 19
1 edit
@sonship saidyes.
@divegeester
My pitch has always been that Revelation is entirely allegorical, metaphorical, symbolism.
Entirely?
Of what then? What for the most part does it symbolize ?
Of what, what, then?
Start a new thread on what it symbolises of you like, this one is about the allegorical, metaphorical, poetic non-literal burning alive of non Christians being overseen by an allegorical Jesus.
12 Oct 19
@sonship saidIf you can pick and choose what parts are good and bad, why bother?
@KellyJay
[quote] The thing that should be taken into account regardless of how one thinks of any text is that language matters, even an allegory is spoken in scripture with intent and should never be ignored. Jesus spoke to many about the Kingdom of God, and He didn't always talk about it in literal terms. The truths of it were still conveyed in what He said. Scriptures are ...[text shortened]... re are parables in Matthew. That doesn't mean everything in Matthew is not historical.