16 Jun 21
@fmf saidSure.
I am not using "disingenuous arguments".
Glad you made a separate post for this assertion - otherwise, I would have thought you are certainly planning on doing so. IT would've changed everything. 😛
16 Jun 21
@philokalia saidIt's you who is sidestepping what my stance is, not me. Here again, you are kick up dust with personal remarks and dodging the content of my posts.
For a man who does not mind repeating personal drama & deflections, you are very tight lipped about actually bringing out your points that would be up for discussion.
16 Jun 21
@philokalia saidI am not evading it at all. The same can't be said for this little slew of posts by you.
I thought you would want to spend your time debating an important issue - not evading it.
16 Jun 21
@philokalia saidCalling my posts disingenuous and then not addressing them is you being evasive, whichever way you slice it.
Sure.
Glad you made a separate post for this assertion - otherwise, I would have thought you are certainly planning on doing so. IT would've changed everything. 😛
@fmf saidThe fact that you have chosen to sidestep this is telling. You don't have any way to argue that eternal torture as a punishment for lack of belief is morally coherent, do you?
Well, I am an agnostic atheist, and, if there is a God ~ a creator being ~ I don't believe it has communicated with us and I don't believe it has offered any rewards or made any threats.
You are relaying a threat - to me - of eternal torture that's been codified by your religion.
What is the purpose of that threat if I don't find it credible?
What is the moral purpose ...[text shortened]... g it out [in secret] after I die if it didn't succeed in deterring or coercing me while I was alive?
16 Jun 21
@philokalia saidIs the vengeful punishment of the children morally sound? The permanent scars all over their bodies resulting from the father's anger? Is what this father does to his children - with burning cigarettes - his "ultimate" or "perfect" moral action as a father?
So y ou do not want to talk about the free will of the son, but you want only to talk about the punishment the son brings upon himself through his own actions?
16 Jun 21
It's impossible to discuss anything - at least over text - with FMF, because he has zero desire to actually engage with your posts, and immediately retreats back into peppering you with his usual questions that he has repeated over the last three years with me, and perhaps the last few decades with other people.
This is why I used to want to see if he was willing to do a live debate -- he called such a proposition creepy, in spite of the fact that entire YouTube channels exist just to showcase such debates.
Now, watch a guy who ignores basic questions about free will try to celebrate this as a victory because I did not get sucked into the bog of only me answering a disjointed interrogation instead of having an actual, honest discussion.
16 Jun 21
@fmf saidThis does not match up with the fact that adults have free will, and those who go to hell go there through their own free actions. They have essentially walked every step of the way on their own, not turning back, into the abyss.
Is the vengeful punishment of the children morally sound? The permanent scars all over their bodies resulting from the father's anger? Is what this father does to his children - with burning cigarettes - his "ultimate" or "perfect" moral action as a father?
But, FMF will rely on analogies with children because he is someone who doesn't believe people are actually responsible for anything.
I can be slightly sympathetic with this, though, because our free will is a tricky thing, as there are certain dispositions and inclinations that can be very hard to overcome.
This would potnetially be an interesting discussion if we are willing to expand it and discuss it openly, not just repeat the same questions & accusations that have been stated for the last several years.
Of course, it can be argued that I am repeating myself... But then, what's the point of any of this? 😆
Maybe it is the case that the forum is ripe for closing.
16 Jun 21
@fmf saidYou confuse sidestepping my stance with us pointing out that it is all bias & distortions of Christian theology meant to serve your strawmanning of hell.
It's you who is sidestepping what my stance is, not me. Here again, you are kick up dust with personal remarks and dodging the content of my posts.
17 Jun 21
@philokalia saidBut I have addressed your citing of "free will". It is you who is not factoring in the fact that I have,
It's impossible to discuss anything - at least over text - with FMF, because he has zero desire to actually engage with your posts, and immediately retreats back into peppering you with his usual questions that he has repeated over the last three years with me, and perhaps the last few decades with other people.
This is why I used to want to see if he was willin ...[text shortened]... only me answering a disjointed interrogation instead of having an actual, honest discussion.
17 Jun 21
@philokalia saidYou think the "forum is ripe for closing" because you are unable to deal with the argument that the torturer God ideology is morally incoherent? The forum should be closed down?
Maybe it is the case that the forum is ripe for closing.
17 Jun 21
@philokalia saidTell us more about your theory that there are non-believers who might have psychological dispositions which prevent them from believing in Jesus and so they will not be tortured for eternity for failing to do so. If you would prefer to start a thread about it on the Science Forum, I'll take a look at it.
You confuse sidestepping my stance with us pointing out that it is all bias & distortions of Christian theology meant to serve your strawmanning of hell.
17 Jun 21
On another current thread, I talked about free will and the notion of deciding to believe supernatural things, and you asked me a direct question: "What can we choose to believe... or is everything absolutely predetermined?" And I answered it point-blank. But you appear to have run away.
17 Jun 21
@fmf said"I've addressed it elsewhere..."
But I have addressed your citing of "free will". It is you who is not factoring in the fact that I have,
😆
"You just didn't provide an adequate response."
🙄
17 Jun 21
@fmf saidRun away? 😆
On another current thread, I talked about free will and the notion of deciding to believe supernatural things, and you asked me a direct question: "What can we choose to believe... or is everything absolutely predetermined?" And I answered it point-blank. But you appear to have run away.
After FMF gives yuo a tiny, circular answer that he is unwilling to talk about further, and the conversation naturally dies...
It's time for him to accuse you of running away.