The gospel

@kellyjay said
I have zero issues with faith and works; I acknowledge them. It is the grace of God that saves us. My works do not save me; they are there as a result of my salvation, not a means to getting saved.

Great, and while that is absolutely correct, it is NOT THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST.. You can find NOWHERE that Jesus or the disciples preached that to the masses. So up to now you lack the ability to clearly separate the teachings and Gospel of Christ from what your church preach as the Gospel.

And what is wrong with that? Nothing mostly, except that you are making rules for entry into the Kingdom of God that Jesus did not make. And the end result is that your church will condemn people that Jesus will accept into the Kingdom of God, and conversely accept people and behaviour that Jesus will condemn.

So in a nutshell you and your church are making a mess of the teachings of Christ.

@rajk999 said
Great, and while that is absolutely correct, it is NOT THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST.. You can find NOWHERE that Jesus or the disciples preached that to the masses. So up to now you lack the ability to clearly separate the teachings and Gospel of Christ from what your church preach as the Gospel.

And what is wrong with that? Nothing mostly, except that you are making rule ...[text shortened]... will condemn.

So in a nutshell you and your church are making a mess of the teachings of Christ.

Faith without works is dead; works without faith are meaningless. We are saved by grace through faith which is a Gift from God. The whole Bible, not just pet scriptures.

@kellyjay said
Faith without works is dead; works without faith are meaningless. We are saved by grace through faith which is a Gift from God. The whole Bible, not just pet scriptures.

You are in effect admitting that Jesus did not preach your church gospel..... that much is clear otherwise you would have produced the evidence. The bible as we have it now did not exist in the time of Christ. Are you saying that Christ is going to judge someone who lived in Israel in 30 AD and heard the Sermon on the Mount is going to be judged by your church gospel?

Faith without works is dead.
Works without faith is eternal life.
Faith + Works = The Elect of God / the Sheep of Christ who get to rule with him for 1000 yrs.

The worst doctrine of the lot is the one you preach ... dead faith, faith without works.

Nobody needs to read the whole bible. You are a good example. You have read the whole thing and yet your understanding is poor.

@rajk999 said
You are in effect admitting that Jesus did not preach your church gospel..... that much is clear otherwise you would have produced the evidence. The bible as we have it now did not exist in the time of Christ. Are you saying that Christ is going to judge someone who lived in Israel in 30 AD and heard the Sermon on the Mount is going to be judged by your church gospel?
...[text shortened]... ole bible. You are a good example. You have read the whole thing and yet your understanding is poor.

Show me works without faith is acceptable. I agree there will be works, its on you to show them without faith.

@kellyjay said
Show me works without faith is acceptable. I agree there will be works, its on you to show them without faith.

Are you serious? Have you not seen any of these in the bible
- a man is justified by works, [many times]
- charity is greater than faith
- love is the fulfillment of the law
- those with no law can still do the good deeds of the law
- the Good Samaritan was considered a spiritual outcast [ he certainly did not know of Christ] and yet he will be in the Kingdom of God while those professing faith, priest and Levite but did not works will be cast out.

Charity is greater than Faith
The charitable will enter the Kingdom of God

@rajk999 said
Are you serious? Have you not seen any of these in the bible
- a man is justified by works, [many times]
- charity is greater than faith
- love is the fulfillment of the law
- those with no law can still do the good deeds of the law
- the Good Samaritan was considered a spiritual outcast [ he certainly did not know of Christ] and yet he will be in the Kingdom of God whil ...[text shortened]... l be cast out.

Charity is greater than Faith
The charitable will enter the Kingdom of God

We are not saved by works, do you need to see the scripture references?

@kellyjay said
We are not saved by works, do you need to see the scripture references?

Clearly you are disagreeing with the bible now becuase there are many statements about justification by works from all of the bible writers.

In all my posts I have scarcely used the word 'saved'. In all of Jesus's preaching of the Gospel he hardly used the word 'saved'. The issue is not how anyone is saved by how to get eternal life in the Kingdom of God.

In almost every letter to the many churches Paul warned these same saved, born again Chrsitian Saints that if they live unrighteously and did not do good works they will not enter the Kingdom of God.

They were SAVED, but it is only when they live RIGHTEOUSLY, ONLY THEN THEY GET ETERNAL LIFE.

Your church doctrine is stuck on saved, and condemns righteousness.
You are going nowhere.

@rajk999 said
Clearly you are disagreeing with the bible now becuase there are many statements about justification by works from all of the bible writers.

In all my posts I have scarcely used the word 'saved'. In all of Jesus's preaching of the Gospel he hardly used the word 'saved'. The issue is not how anyone is saved by how to get eternal life in the Kingdom of God.

In almost ...[text shortened]... LIFE.

Your church doctrine is stuck on saved, and condemns righteousness.
You are going nowhere.

Again what saves us according to Scripture not Church doctrine not according to me or you.

@kellyjay said
Again what saves us according to Scripture not Church doctrine not according to me or you.

I probably answered this about 5 times in the last 15 years.

Jesus saves all of mankind,
Through his death and resurrection...
ALL OF MANKIND IS SAVED.
But all of mankind does not get eternal life
Saved does not automatically mean eternal life.
Jesus is the way to eternal life.
Jesus made the rules about who he will give eternal life.
Its all spelt out clearly in His Gospel.
Those who do good works and live rightreously will enter the Kingdom of God.

This is the doctrine of Jesus Christ, Paul and all the Aposltes.
It is however not the doctrine of most churches.

Rajk999 writes:

I probably answered this about 5 times in the last 15 years.

Jesus saves all of mankind,
Through his death and resurrection...
ALL OF MANKIND IS SAVED.

So to Rajk999 these people are "saved".

" And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev. 20:15)

To Rajk999 these are the all saved of mankind.
This is the "ALL OF MANKIND IS SAVED" including these whose names will not be found written in the book of life.

They are in the lake of fire "saved" in Rajk999's teaching.
Where do you think such a concept originates? With the Holy Spirit or demons?

@rajk999 said
I probably answered this about 5 times in the last 15 years.

Jesus saves all of mankind,
Through his death and resurrection...
ALL OF MANKIND IS SAVED.
But all of mankind does not get eternal life
Saved does not automatically mean eternal life.
Jesus is the way to eternal life.
Jesus made the rules about who he will give eternal life.
Its all spelt out clearly in ...[text shortened]... ctrine of Jesus Christ, Paul and all the Aposltes.
It is however not the doctrine of most churches.

No, all of mankind can be saved. Jesus took on the sins of the whole world, we all have the right to become children of God, but some are not going to be; instead, they will hear the words, I never knew you. According to many of the things Jesus said in many settings talking in different parables and stories about judgment day, some are cast out, some even bragging about all of the things they did in His name. Those who don't abide Him, those that deny Him, those that don't put God in His rightful place in their lives over everyone and everything else is not worthy of Him, those that miss Jesus Christ who is the Way, Truth, Life, the narrow door no one comes to the Father but through Him.

We all have eternal life; our fate is going to be where we spend it. In God's Kingdom, or will we be cast out of it into the 2nd death? What happens to those cast out is a different topic; right now, its works without faith; I believe we both agree good works will be a part of our lives. I believe they will be after we are made right with God that they will be good works, and at this moment, I believe you are claiming they are the essential parts of life, which we can have even without faith in God.

We agree. I believe faith without works is dead; I don't think there is any disagreement between us there; I believe we both agree good works are promoted by everyone in scripture talking about how we are to live. But like our love towards God, there are proper orders; it isn't just faith without works; faith in Jesus Christ matters; it is the essential part of all of this.

I even agree with some they are putting faith in faith, I believe therefore I'm saved, which I don't believe is scriptural either. It isn't because we have faith we are saved, it is because of Jesus Christ we are saved our faith needs to be in Him, and when we give our lives to Him, He gives His life to us. When Jesus takes away our sins, He becomes our righteousness, He stands as our propitiation, our justifier, our redeemer, our savior, our Lord and King, our everything we need our Way, Truth, and Life, the door to the Father.

We all have eternal life; our fate is going to be where we spend it.

Though I would also say much of what you said, I would not say this.

The Son of God IS the eternal life. If you have not the Son you have not within THE eternal life. That is so even if you do live everlastingly.

"And this is the testimony, that God gave to us eternal life and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

I have written these things to you that you may know that you have eternal life, to you who believe into the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:11-13)

Some may have the Son and do not realize it.
Those who do have the Son should KNOW that they have THE life.
Whoever has the Son has THE life.
What life? THE eternal life.

@sonship said

We all have eternal life; our fate is going to be where we spend it.

Though I would also say much of what you said, I would not say this.

The Son of God IS the eternal life. If you have not the Son you have not within THE eternal life. That is so even if you do live everlastingly.

[b]"And this is the testimony, that God gave to us eternal life an ...[text shortened]... KNOW that they have THE life.
Whoever has the Son has THE life.
What life? THE eternal life.

There is life with God and life without Him; you are correct there is a difference. Even here, we can have a life with and without God, to spend eternity like that I would want to avoid.

@sonship said

" And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev. 20:15)

Yes. You clearly do not understand what was the purpose of the death of Christ. Even before people came into the world when there was only Adam and Eve and sin was introduced, God had promised a Saviour to die for that first sin. Paul explained in great detail that a blood sacrifice was necessary for the sin of Adam from which sin was imputed to the whole world,,, inherited sin. As in Adam all die so through Christ all shall be made alive. All people had this imputed sin removed from them by the death of Christ... therefore ALL ARE SAVED FROM THE SIN OF ADAM.

Christ also died for all other sins of the world, and this is done on an individual basis. Paul explained that not all sins are removed, and Christians like you that twist the bible and conclude that Christians can continue to live a life of sin and it will be forgiven are sadly mistaken.

Saved has several meanings and in the context of the death of Christ, God sent Christ to SAVE MANKIND so that man [those who live righteously], can have eternal life.

@Rajk999

Jesus saves all of mankind,
Through his death and resurrection...

You use the word resurrection. But what dictionary defines what YOU mean when you use it? Do you use something like the Jehovah Witnesses concept of resurrection?

Here is your golden opportunity to refute me that you do believe ohysically, bodily, so that he could EAT a piece of fish, so that his body's wounds could be seen and felt - resurrection.

Is that what you mean? Or do you mean "resurrection" in some other sense NOT meaning Christ's tortured, crucified BODY raised physically by God from the dead?

Here's your chance to prove sonship wrong about you. Or otherwise.