The Myth: Once saved always saved!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Gods love has always been conditional...

Is the love toward your own children "conditional" robbie?

Originally posted by divegeester
Is the love toward your own children "conditional" robbie?

My point exactly, these people seem to have a deeper love for their own than God does. In their minds, of course.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
My point exactly, these people seem to have a deeper love for their own than God does. In their minds, of course.

It's all about the 3 "M"s

Membership - creating exclusivity and a barrier to entry and of course, to exit (try getting out of the Jehovah's witnesses with your emotional well being intact for example).

Money - let's face it, how many poor religious corporations do you see?

Me - the big one; ego, pride, power and control.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
The problem I have with the two of you, is the god you worship.
1. His love is conditional.
2. He judges you on your performance.

So in essence your lives must be like a yoyo, up and down. One day he loves me next day he doesn't.
One day I'm saved, next day I'm not.
My earthly father did a better job than that. And he was not God!
I think God can ...[text shortened]... son, no matter what.
Your god is fickle and not real. He is a product of your own imagination.

checkbaiter, i have never said his love is conditional. The mistake you are making (and you are not alone in this) is that you think when someone doesn't go to heaven, that God doesn't still love them. Or in this thought, if one falls from grace, that God doesn't still love them. God does love them, always, it is we who choose to depart from God's grace. And it is we; when our sinfulness is so great, our pride, arrogance, hatred for others; we in the presence of God, condemn ourselves. God's love is unfailing. His forgiveness is abundant, but it is we who must come to him on bended knee, repenting of our sins.

Jesus paid the price in full, and when saved it is expected we should strive to be perfect. And if we sin, we must repent, and then continue striving. If you sin, all the while claiming "it is ok, because i know Jesus is Lord. Yet without repentent heart, you will have thrown away your salvation. Your sin will remain with you after death. Sin is something of the spirit too. It is caused in your mortal body, as is love, and both sin and love are judged before God.

If it were not important, sin and or love, then what point would there be in a final judgement. This is why it is important to read the rest of the scripture, and understand the importance of reaching out to the hungry, the naked, all those who are in need. Why it is important to forgive others that don't deserve it. Because when we stand before God, and say "I KNOW JESUS IS MY LORD AND SAVIOR", God will simply say, and what have you done with this knowledge. Did you take strangers into your house and feed them? Did you help the neighbor whose house burnt down? Did you give to the needy? Did you visit strangers at the hospital and sing Christmas carols to them? In doing these things to the least of your bretheren, you have done them also for me. But if you ignored the least of your bretheren, I too will ignore your pleading.

Then your sin will remain. And sin cannot be in the presence of God. When a man full of sin, and no love stands before God. It isn't God who sends him to hell, it is the man who chooses it. God's love is eternal, hard as it is to understand, hell is also of God's love.

Originally posted by Rajk999
"His own" ? Do you claim to know who is included in 'his own'?

Rajk999, i know who His own are, all who do the will of the Father. And to boot all whom the Holy Spirit shows me.

Originally posted by Rajk999
"His own" ? Do you claim to know who is included in 'his own'?

Rajk999 why are you attacking on such a frivillus notion anyways. I like what Manny said, he is correct.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Gods love has always been conditional, flip sake he punished the ancient Hebrews severely for their iniquity time and again and the idea that God somehow negates his own standards for sentimentality is also erroneous.

The problem is that Christendom has watered these standards down, instead of God being love, so called Love is their God and they ...[text shortened]... under its guise. God has standards and he expects his worshippers to abide by those standards.

God's love is unconditional. The problem we are having is our concept of what love is. There is your typical love and then there is hard love. Hard love is sending your child to a mental ward, because he is a danger to himself and others. Hard love is kicking your 22yr old son/daughter out of the house. They just need to be on their own. Hard love is God punishing His children because of there sinfulness.

Originally posted by divegeester
Is the love toward your own children "conditional" robbie?

absolutely correct

Originally posted by Pudgenik
Rajk999 why are you attacking on such a frivillus notion anyways. I like what Manny said, he is correct.

Pudgenik Im 'attacking' because the OSAS group claims to know who is saved. Hence my question. They use the Romans 10:9 to say that they know that upon accepting Christ with their mouth they are saved eternally and God cannot revoke their salvation.

I think this is a very important distinction to make and not frivolous at all, because it is on this one point in Romans that they also say that they can sin and sin wilfully without losing anything. This is clearly wrong doctrine.

Only God and Christ knows a mans heart and whether or not they fall into this category :

Mar 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Originally posted by Pudgenik
Rajk999, i know who His own are, all who do the will of the Father. And to boot all whom the Holy Spirit shows me.

This is correct. Unfortunately according to the OSAS gang, doing is the will of the Father is not required for eternal life.

Originally posted by Pudgenik
absolutely correct

What is?

Originally posted by Pudgenik
checkbaiter, i have never said his love is conditional. The mistake you are making (and you are not alone in this) is that you think when someone doesn't go to heaven, that God doesn't still love them. Or in this thought, if one falls from grace, that God doesn't still love them. God does love them, always, it is we who choose to depart from God's grace. An ...[text shortened]... who chooses it. God's love is eternal, hard as it is to understand, hell is also of God's love.

Very nice post indeed and very factual biblically. I would be interested in seeing some serious responses to the points made here. I hope a couple of the OSAS group responds.

Originally posted by Pudgenik
checkbaiter, i have never said his love is conditional. The mistake you are making (and you are not alone in this) is that you think when someone doesn't go to heaven, that God doesn't still love them. Or in this thought, if one falls from grace, that God doesn't still love them. God does love them, always, it is we who choose to depart from God's grace. An ...[text shortened]... who chooses it. God's love is eternal, hard as it is to understand, hell is also of God's love.

This is wrong, and I will explain why, after I get home...

Originally posted by divegeester
What is?

the statement you made to robbie about conditional love and his children. I have unconditional love to my children. But i also practice tough love with them. Discipline

Originally posted by Pudgenik
the statement you made to robbie about conditional love and his children. I have unconditional love to my children. But i also practice tough love with them. Discipline

It was a question to him not a statement, which was why your response confused me.

My point to him (which of course he won't respond to) being that parents love their children unconditionally and yet the Jehovah's Witness misanthropic view of their god's love for his creation is laced with conditions.