24 Nov 13
Originally posted by divegeesterI'm not that familiar with the JW's views in reguards to their children. So any point i may be making in using children as an example would be moot.
It was a question to him not a statement, which was why your response confused me.
My point to him (which of course he won't respond to) being that parents love their children unconditionally and yet the Jehovah's Witness misanthropic view of their god's love for his creation is laced with conditions.
But i did understand it as both a question to him, and a statement of where you personally were coming from.
By the way, where did you get "divegeester" from?
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24 Nov 13
Originally posted by Pudgenik
checkbaiter, i have never said his love is conditional. The mistake you are making (and you are not alone in this) is that you think when someone doesn't go to heaven, that God doesn't still love them. Or in this thought, if one falls from grace, that God doesn't still love them. God does love them, always, it is we who choose to depart from God's grace. An ...[text shortened]... who chooses it. God's love is eternal, hard as it is to understand, hell is also of God's love.
is that you think when someone doesn't go to heaven, that God doesn't still love them. Or in this thought, if one falls from grace, that God doesn't still love them.
It is one thing to show tough love by kicking out your 22 year old, it is quite another to condemn your 22 year old to hell.
Jesus paid the price in full, and when saved it is expected we should strive to be perfect. And if we sin, we must repent, and then continue striving. If you sin, all the while claiming "it is ok, because i know Jesus is Lord. Yet without repentent heart, you will have thrown away your salvation. Your sin will remain with you after death. Sin is something of the spirit too. It is caused in your mortal body, as is love, and both sin and love are judged before God.
I agree that genuine salvation is a big deal. It is not just a mouth worship as Raj continues to say, belittling God's word. He constantly refers to the first part of Romans 10:9, but omits the 2nd part, about believing in the heart. I don't think he even understands the first part.
When a person, any person confesses with the mouth means to say I agree with God. To confess Jesus as Lord, is to make a total commitment to him. That is to say, the said person commits all to him, lock, stock and barrel. The second part is to believe with the heart, the innermost being that God has truly raised him from the dead.
He also continues to negate that a person can be saved...contradicting these verses...
Rom 10:10-13
For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
NKJV
Now you are saying that the spirit in a human, born again, that has sin, corrupts his spirit, directly contradicting what the bible says...
1 Peter 1:4-5
to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
NKJV
1 Peter 1:23
having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,
NKJV
The spirit from God IN a person cannot sin...
1 John 3:9
Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
NKJV
Now I agree that a person born again has a new nature, and that new nature is evident by the person's "works". Good works is a byproduct of salvation. But if that same person sins, he is obligated to repent and continue agreeing with the Lord that sin is self destructive. But even if satan tricks said person and he continues down the wrong path, God remains faithful and will save this person because his sins were already paid for, not to mention that this sin never penetrates into the spirit part of him. The born again spirit cannot sin, it is sealed, incorruptible.
There is no such thing as falling from grace.
1 Cor 3:15
If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
NKJV
2 Tim 2:13
13 If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
He cannot deny Himself.
NKJV
03 Dec 13
Originally posted by menace71This the correct approach, to stay faithful, and is the most common teaching of Christ and the Apostles. As for the OSAS doctrine that is not a correct teaching.
Also ..... there is a part of me who says who cares ? the parable of the Wheat & the Tares come to mind....Jesus knows who the wheat are and allows the Tares to exist at the end of the age He will sort out the wheat from the Tares the duty of the Christian is to just stay faithful
Manny
To stay faithful means the following:
- endure to the end
- follow the commandents of Christ
- resist sin and evil
- pray with humility and contriteness of heart
- repent
To stay faithful does not mean:
- to boast ".. I am a sinner and I sin all the time"
- to boast " Im saved and not even God can take that way"
- to boast "God has sealed me and I cannot sin"
04 Dec 13
Originally posted by Rajk999I take it in your world no one has any assurance of their salvation. How do explain to someone who asks you, scriptures which talk of any person who is in Christ is a "new creation" and having "no condemnation". How can someone be in Christ and yet (in your world) not yet saved, or is it that they can be in Christ one day and out the next?
This the correct approach, to stay faithful, and is the most common teaching of Christ and the Apostles. As for the OSAS doctrine that is not a correct teaching.
To stay faithful means the following:
- endure to the end
- follow the commandents of Christ
- resist sin and evil
- pray with humility and contriteness of heart
- repent
To stay faith ...[text shortened]... " Im saved and not even God can take that way"
- to boast "God has sealed me and I cannot sin"
09 Dec 13
Originally posted by divegeesterHow do YOU know who is saved or otherwise?
I take it in your world no one has any assurance of their salvation. How do explain to someone who asks you, scriptures which talk of any person who is in Christ is a "new creation" and having "no condemnation". How can someone be in Christ and yet (in your world) not yet saved, or is it that they can be in Christ one day and out the next?
09 Dec 13
Originally posted by divegeesterI believe the relevant scripture is this:
By their "fruit" as it says in scripture, not by their works.
"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." -- Matthew 7:15-20 (KJV)
Also a part of "The Sermon on the Mount". An important piece of scripture since it contains a good solid chunk of Jesus' wisdom and insights.
09 Dec 13
Originally posted by divegeesterSo are you saying that you can determine who are 'saved' [ie get into Gods Kingdom] and who cannot? And you do this by looking at their 'fruit' ... whatever that is?
By their "fruit" as it says in scripture, not by their works.
I would be interested in seeing Bible references to support this. Christ gave advice on how to detect false prophets and said that by their fruits you will know them. Are you using that to claim you know who is saved by their fruits?
09 Dec 13
Originally posted by Rajk999No, I'm saying that I don't judge. Especially people by their so called "works". However I accept that obedience is also an indicator.
So are you saying that you can determine who are 'saved' [ie get into Gods Kingdom] and who cannot? And you do this by looking at their 'fruit' ... whatever that is?
I would be interested in seeing Bible references to support this. Christ gave advice on how to detect false prophets and said that by their fruits you will know them. Are you using that to claim you know who is saved by their fruits?
But you asked me a direct question and I wanted to try an answer it as best as I could (which I did) to alieviate you the risk of getting you panities in a knot again.
09 Dec 13
Originally posted by divegeesterNo you did not answer the question. Here it is again:
No, I'm saying that I don't judge. Especially people by their so called "works". However I accept that obedience is also an indicator.
But you asked me a direct question and I wanted to try an answer it as best as I could (which I did) to alieviate you the risk of getting you panities in a knot again.
How do YOU know who is saved or otherwise?
Then you replied with:
By their "fruit" .
The part about works is of no relevance. You say you know who is saved by their fruit. Then I reminded you that the only place you could have gotton that is from Christ advice about spotting false prophets.
So how can you know who is saved by knowing who are false prophets?
Clearly it is something wrong with your panties.
In any event Im tired of this topic and the stupidity of the believers of this once saved always saved foolishness. So I would not be posting on this topic again. Good luck to you pal. See you in another thread.
09 Dec 13
3 edits
Wow, Dive, maybe you coulda saved the forum 14 pages of la, la, la, la, la, if you had posted that on page one. 🙂
It's really too bad that most Christians cannot take what they read in the Gospels and apply it to their lives in many ways instead of insisting that the words of the Bible (especially the Gospels) be taken 'oh-so-literally-or-you'll-burn-in-hell-forever' kind of nonsense. Sheesh, people, it's a guidebook, not a rulebook.
Case in point. Why can't one take Christ's warning of false prophets and how to spot them and apply it to knowing who one should follow and take advice from? Clearly it applies also to spotting 'true Christians'. For aren't they also 'false prophets' who stand around and talk incessantly about how they are saved and yet you cannot see Christ in their daily lives? How are they not also 'false prophets'? But no, too many close their minds and hearts to this teaching by saying, "Oh, he's only talking about false prophets here." Open your minds, people. Are you producing 'grapes and figs' or are you producing 'thorns and thistles'? Yes, you.
Faith and love, yes, this pertains to Christ's 'greatest commandments', and yes, this is all you need. All the rest will follow, as long as you have the faith and love necessary to see it through.
09 Dec 13
Originally posted by Rajk999Let me be clear; I do not know who is and isn't saved, only God knows those who are his. To try to say so is being judgemental.
No you did not answer the question. Here it is again:
How do YOU know who is saved or otherwise?
Then you replied with:
By their "fruit" .
The part about works is of no relevance. You say you know who is saved by their fruit. Then I reminded you that the only place you could have gotton that is from Christ advice about spotting fals ...[text shortened]... So I would not be posting on this topic again. Good luck to you pal. See you in another thread.
If you see someone sinning are they "backsliden" (hate that term btw) or are they not yet saved? Who knows? You may say that they are unsaved because you believe that person loses thier salvation if they sin to some (yet to be determind) level. I say, "I don't know" what their situation is with God in eternity, and because it is in eternity time has no bearing on when the sin occured, it is where we are in eternity; not from one day's sin to to the next day's righteousness.
09 Dec 13
Originally posted by SuzianneAnother spiritual buffet queen, take what you like and leave what you don't, how convenient for you.
Wow, Dive, maybe you coulda saved the forum 14 pages of la, la, la, la, la, if you had posted that on page one. 🙂
It's really too bad that most Christians cannot take what they read in the Gospels and apply it to their lives in many ways instead of insisting that the words of the Bible (especially the Gospels) be taken 'oh-so-literally-or-you'll-burn-in ...[text shortened]... the rest will follow, as long as you have the faith and love necessary to see it through.