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10 Oct 23
@medullah saidAn impasse has been reached sir, on our respective evolutionary journeys.
@Ghost-of-a-Duke
I appreciate your position sir, and we can amicably agree to disagree, though i would draw your attention to the point that Dr Cann established common ancestry through the femail line. On this point I would concede that she wasn't claiming to have proven the existence of Eve of garden of Eden fame.
10 Oct 23
Going back to the OP the sort of everyday problems that world faces is corruption; wars; starvation, and homelessness.
So if I was in charge what would I do?
If you look at the book of Daniel Ch2:44 there is a a very significant action that takes place - " “In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever."
The kingdom strikes at the most dominant world power.
Why re-invent the wheel?
I'd stage it, a bit like peeling layers on an onion. Give notice and strike in a very visable way say that it could not be missed who is behind what. Hopefully that way we would get people to repent and start cleaning this place up.
The current situation has to be brought to an end.
10 Oct 23
@ghost-of-a-duke saidA very fair positon, a draw, though I won't be offering you one of those when the pieces are palced on the board 😉
An impasse has been reached sir, on our respective evolutionary journeys.
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10 Oct 23
@medullah saidThen when the mouth lips and tongue of Jesus said “before Abraham was, I am” takes on a whole different meaning from the trinitarian notion that it did… that the body of Jesus existed before he was born.
I've never said that it didn't.
I.e. “hear oh Israel, the Lord you pr God is ONE”
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10 Oct 23
@medullah saidThe scriptures also don’t explicitly say that no one goes to hell and that the entire human race was “saved” at Calvary, but that’s what I believe. Hell (as one possible future state) was done away with with when Jesus metaphorically got the keys.
Raj is correct. There is no such thing as once saved always saved, that isn't what is the scriptures say. The scripture that I quoted from Matthew 7 makes that clear.
Everything else is the temporal outworking in our lives even for atheists. This is why Paul said “work out your salvation”, I.e. figure it out and live it out with good works. This is why there is “reward in heaven”. We work for that reward, not for our salvation which was bought by Jesus Christ.
10 Oct 23
@divegeester saidI neither dodge your point or question. Have you considered the possiblity that as great as you are, you might possibly not be communicating very well?
You can dodge my point, my questions of your assertion that the “saved” can be “unsaved” … by hiding behind semantics if you wish.
Spell out you questions and they will get answered if I can.
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@medullah saidFrom page 15 where I first asked you in reply to your assertion that a saved person can lose their salvation:
I neither dodge your point or question. Have you considered the possiblity that as great as you are, you might possibly not be communicating very well?
Spell out you questions and they will get answered if I can.
It is possible for a person to be born of god, rebirth, born again (whichever), saved by grace through faith… but to “pretty much” lose that salvation if they don’t do some good deeds, or some specific deeds, specific quantity or frequency of good deeds?
Let me break it down for you as you seem to feel it’s “complicated”…
If a saved Christian can be “pretty much” (your words) unsaved then:
- how do they know they have been unsaved?
- can they be re-saved?
- what level or amount of good works do they need to do to be re-saved?
- can they be unsaved and re-saved a second third or fourth time?
- if being saved isn’t permanent, then it not really “saved” is it, more like a probation wouldn’t you say?
- what happens if they do lots of good works all their life but then screw up on the last week or day of their life, will all the previous years of good works count for nothing?
10 Oct 23
@divegeester saidSonship is back !
From page 15 where I first asked you in reply to your assertion that a saved person can lose their salvation:
It is possible for a person to be born of god, rebirth, born again (whichever), saved by grace through faith… but to “pretty much” lose that salvation if they don’t do some good deeds, or some specific deeds, specific quantity or frequency of good deeds?
Let ...[text shortened]... on the last week or day of their life, will all the previous years of good works count for nothing?
10 Oct 23
@divegeester saidDG. Let me crystallise a couple of things which hopefully will make our dialogue going forward easier, as I still think you are making wrong assumptions about me, and that reflects in the way that you are posing quesions.
Then when the mouth lips and tongue of Jesus said “before Abraham was, I am” takes on a whole different meaning from the trinitarian notion that it did… that the body of Jesus existed before he was born.
I.e. “hear oh Israel, the Lord you pr God is ONE”
1) I'm not a Trinitarian, I'm a Unitarian.
2) I place very little importance on the born again stuff in relation to me personally. I'm not, born again as in the Sonships of the world would promote it. It doesn't apply to me. I'm not going to heaven. (Matt 5:5 Psalms 37:11) Born again isn't even in my thinking.
3) I don't use or like the word "grace" in a religious context. If I mean "good will" then I won't fanny around with grace stuff, I'll say "good will".
My understanding on Jesus is that he had a prehuman existence, but not as flesh and blood. He was of the spirit realm (God's Son, NOT God the Son). So for me the body took form for the first time in Mary's womb. So yes Jeusus existed before Abraham.
Now the scripture that you have highlighted is a really good one (Deut 6 4-15)
The Trinitarians try and bend it to "One in Purpose", but what God (the great YHWH of Israel ) is telling them is that he is most definitely singular. So why is that?
When that verse was spoken, God was prepping the Israelites to take posession of the promised land, and was distinguishing himself from what they were about to encounter. In that land were peoples already inhabiting it who worshipped Gods who were combine pluralities (E.g Moloch/Baal). These people indulged in child sacrifice and whole load of stuff God condemned, which the Israelites got dragged into including sacrifricing their own children. I'll leave it there.
I hope that helps, but if it doesn't just rephrase your question, and i will do my best.
@divegeester saidOK crossed posts.
From page 15 where I first asked you in reply to your assertion that a saved person can lose their salvation:
It is possible for a person to be born of god, rebirth, born again (whichever), saved by grace through faith… but to “pretty much” lose that salvation if they don’t do some good deeds, or some specific deeds, specific quantity or frequency of good deeds?
Let ...[text shortened]... on the last week or day of their life, will all the previous years of good works count for nothing?
Thank you.
1) I don't know, If you are committing gross sin then your conscience should give you a nudge. If you are going around murdering people or shagging the local barmaid you won't need to be told that you are doing wrong.
2) I believe so, by repenting. Peter denied Christ and was forgiven.
3) I don't think that you do so many good works to qualify. You make a change in the way you live and stick to it. I don't think it's like accruing brownie points. It's a continuous process.
4) yes. Jesus made the point that if somebody did you wrong and was genuinely sorry that you should forgive. The same is true of God unless you have sinned against the Holy spirit, and then you have a problem.
5) I think you make a fair point. If you have arisen to heaven you are incorruptable, and therefore saved. Nobody on the earth is home and dry (if you'll forgive the phrase) until after the millenium reign of Christ.
6) It would depend on what they did. I'm not judging (thankfully) and would imagine that mercy would be shown. The thing to keep in mind with this is that we are not perfect, and Christ who is doing the judging knows that. If you walk into a pub and forget to pay for your drink then technically its theft but in reality all you have done is made a mistake. If you muder somebody then we are in a different ball game, but there may be mitigating factors.
I find it a lot easier if you break it down like this, then I understand exactly what you are trying to address, thank you.
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11 Oct 23
@medullah saidI don’t know
OK crossed posts.
Thank you.
1) I don't know, If you are committing gross sin then your conscience should give you a nudge. If you are going around murdering people or shagging the local barmaid you won't need to be told that you are doing wrong.
2) I believe so, by repenting. Peter denied Christ and was forgiven.
3) I don't think that you do so many good works ...[text shortened]... if you break it down like this, then I understand exactly what you are trying to address, thank you.
I believe so
It depends
What’s obvious to me is that the notion of salvation by God is … salvation. Period. And the notion of having salvation, losing it, regaining it, losing it is unworkable, unteachable and inexplainable to those interested.
What is explainable and fitting with God’s sovereignty is: you’re saved, now enjoy it, go live it out and show others they can enjoy it in this life also, follow the laws I’ve written on your heart, keep in touch with me, follow my lead. If you don’t there might be consequences or even some discipline, but I’ll always be here for you.
11 Oct 23
@divegeester saidSorry I missed this post first time around.
The scriptures also don’t explicitly say that no one goes to hell and that the entire human race was “saved” at Calvary, but that’s what I believe. Hell (as one possible future state) was done away with with when Jesus metaphorically got the keys.
Everything else is the temporal outworking in our lives even for atheists. This is why Paul said “work out your salvation” ...[text shortened]... reward in heaven”. We work for that reward, not for our salvation which was bought by Jesus Christ.
That's interresting, I've not heard that idea before.
Certainly the concept of hell was something that the Catholic church (and several others) have used to instill fear in people (threat of burning forever) which isn't what it is (the common grave).
So I would agree with you that it will be done away with (death will be removed so no need for graves?), only I think that the timescale would be after the millenial reign, as it looks as though there will be a final testing. So I'd but into the idea that Jesus metaphorically got the keys but they don't get used until after quarratine arrangement that we live in is resolved?
11 Oct 23
@divegeester saidThis is not in the bible. If it is please quote - What’s obvious to me is that the notion of salvation by God is … salvation. Period. That is what the church wants people to hear so that they will come. People do not want to hear the part about righteousness and doing good works.
I don’t know
I believe so
It depends
What’s obvious to me is that the notion of salvation by God is … salvation. Period. And the notion of having salvation, losing it, regaining it, losing it is unworkable, unteachable and inexplainable to those interested.
What is explainable and fitting with God’s sovereignty is: you’re saved, now enjoy it, go live it out and ...[text shortened]... . If you don’t there might be consequences or even some discipline, but I’ll always be here for you.
Salvation by God is the Grace of God which is Jesus Christ who was sent to die for the sins of the world so that all men can be free of the curse of the sin of Adam. This is the Grace of God or Salvation of God. This is NOT ETERNAL LIFE. Eternal life is for those who keep the commandments.
I notice you refrain from using the term 'eternal life,' or 'inheritance' in the Kingdom of God. Pauls used that expression and he was clear that although born again Christian Saints were saved or justified, and had 'salvation', if they fail to live righteously there is no inheritance in the Kingdom of God for them.
So your doctrine if 50% correct. The part you left out which Paul and all the Apostles explained in detail is the critical part.
11 Oct 23
@divegeester saidAll people are saved. Some get eternal life. Some are cast out. Christ was clear, there is both reward and there is punishment which is death /annihilation by fire. It is not eternal torment.
The scriptures also don’t explicitly say that no one goes to hell and that the entire human race was “saved” at Calvary, but that’s what I believe. Hell (as one possible future state) was done away with with when Jesus metaphorically got the keys.
Everything else is the temporal outworking in our lives even for atheists. This is why Paul said “work out your salvation” ...[text shortened]... reward in heaven”. We work for that reward, not for our salvation which was bought by Jesus Christ.