12 Oct 23
@medullah saidWell you know what business I have so Im doing that pretty often. As for doctrine, here is my take on that. There are thousands of Christian sects because they can all prove that their doctrine is the right one. But none of that matters if Jesus made a particular point abundantly clear. If he did then that is the only correct one.
Raj
I made my point quite correctly from several translations of the Bible.
You are a proud man that doesn't like to beaten, so you decided to try and make it personal.
All you are doing is doubling down.
Have a great evening; I will be going down the boozer.
If Jesus is silent on something then it really is not important and you can go to town on that point and study and quote and analyse all you like ... like what people do with the Jesus = God doctrine.
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12 Oct 23
@rajk999 saidSo your version of God only loves people who first love him?
This is a very simple matter and I have quoted this verse many times, but people who are indoctrinated by church doctrines cannot see this point. Gods love is conditional. God's love for man is dependent on man returning that love. How? Not by professing faith or saying 'I love God'. Not by going to church or reading the bible. Here it is:
[i]He that hath my commandment ...[text shortened]... f the man dies without keeping the commandments then God knows that man does not love him in return.
12 Oct 23
@divegeester saidGod loves the world in that he sent his son to die for their sins.
So your version of God only loves people who first love him?
God loves those who keep the commandments.
You figure out the rest.
12 Oct 23
@divegeester saidI never said anything about first, second or third.
So your version of God only loves people who first love him?
Based on your previous post, this was my question to you.
13 Oct 23
@divegeester saidI had also stated that Gods love for man was demonstrated by sending Jesus to die so that mankind can be saved. All of mankind are saved [from the condemnation of the sin of Adam] but not all will get eternal life. Some will perish and the reason is failure to keep the commandments. As stated in John which I already quoted, God loves those who keep the commandments and God abides with them.
You said “god’s love is conditional” on people loving him back.
You’re version of god, doesn’t sound like the god I know about. In fact I’d say it sounds petty and small.
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13 Oct 23
@rajk999 saidYes ok I know that’s what you believe, but my reply to what you previously commented was…
I had also stated that Gods love for man was demonstrated by sending Jesus to die so that mankind can be saved. All of mankind are saved [from the condemnation of the sin of Adam] but not all will get eternal life. Some will perish and the reason is failure to keep the commandments. As stated in John which I already quoted, God loves those who keep the commandments and God abides with them.
You said “god’s love is conditional” on people loving him back.
You’re version of god, doesn’t sound like the god I know about. In fact I’d say it sounds petty and small.
13 Oct 23
@divegeester saidIm going by whats in the bible, so its not my version of God. The bible says God loved the world and gave Jesus to die, so that people can have eternal life. There is a condition that is repeated all over the bible and it is obedience which means keeping the commandments. Disobedience means damnation [again clearly stated in the bible] so clearly God hates disobedience and/or people who disobey.
Yes ok I know that’s what you believe, but my reply to what you previously commented was…
You said “god’s love is conditional” on people loving him back.
You’re version of god, doesn’t sound like the god I know about. In fact I’d say it sounds petty and small.
God loves and God hates. Again, lots of references with that.
These church cliches about God loving people unconditionally can be very misleading.
13 Oct 23
1 edit
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son……..”
That was unconditional and did not depend on the world knowing God first; it wasn’t restricted to just those that happened to love God at the time, but for everyone. Love by its very nature is unconditional. You don’t love your children on the basis that they love you first; you love and nurture them because of what they are, that is the nature of being a parent.
John tells us at 1 John 4:8 that “anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.” Love is probably his primary attribute. It the verse to me (I’m not speaking for anybody else) that tells you how unlikely it is that he would set up a judicial system that would culminate with humans receiving a ritual roasting for eternity in some supernatural inferno.
There are number of references throughout the bible to the end of the world as we know it (lots of different ideas on what that looks like) but a key thought from 1 Tim 2:4 is that God “wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth”. I couldn’t find anything conditional hanging on that?
13 Oct 23
@medullah saidI agree with the Grace of God part where God gave his Son Jesus to die for the sins of the world. That has no conditions since all people are justified by the death of Christ as Paul stated clearly in Romans 5. Many Christians do not accept this point and claim that only Christians are justified through faith. Faith is not a requirement and there are no conditions as Jesus died for the sins of the whole world.
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son……..”
That was unconditional and did not depend on the world knowing God first; it wasn’t restricted to just those that happened to love God at the time, but for everyone. Love by its very nature is unconditional. You don’t love your children on the basis that they love you first; you love and nurture ...[text shortened]... aved and to come to a knowledge of the truth”. I couldn’t find anything conditional hanging on that?
However not all people will get eternal life in the Kingdom of God. As Jesus sated himself over and over many will be cast out.
They are justified, Jesus died for them but they will still be cast out. The reason is disobedience and failure to keep the commandments. That means entry into the Kingdom of God is conditional.
13 Oct 23
@rajk999 said"However not all people will get eternal life in the Kingdom of God" - if the impression has been created that I think contrary to this then it's a breakdown in communication - I agree.
I agree with the Grace of God part where God gave his Son Jesus to die for the sins of the world. That has no conditions since all people are justified by the death of Christ as Paul stated clearly in Romans 5. Many Christians do not accept this point and claim that only Christians are justified through faith. Faith is not a requirement and there are no conditions as Jesus ...[text shortened]... ience and failure to keep the commandments. That means entry into the Kingdom of God is conditional.
ebrews 11:6 says "And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him." But it doesn't say that faith in itself is a requisite.
On the matter of faith though, I don't see how a Christian could do what they need to do without faith, though I'm not saying that it is impossible.
14 Oct 23
@medullah saidInterestingly people have been pleasing God for thousands of years before Paul said that and even without knowing about God. In the parable of the Good Samaritan the man who was a good neighbour did not know anything about Christ death and resurrection and even God {the Jews considered them to be outcasts], while the priest and Levite were both men of faith. There are more examples of that throughout the bible.
"However not all people will get eternal life in the Kingdom of God" - if the impression has been created that I think contrary to this then it's a breakdown in communication - I agree.
ebrews 11:6 says "And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him." But it d ...[text shortened]... Christian could do what they need to do without faith, though I'm not saying that it is impossible.
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14 Oct 23
@rajk999 saidWell it is your version, because like us all you cherry pick the bit of the bible which suit you. The bits of the bible you chose are the ones which prompt you to say “God’s love is conditional on people loving him back”.
Im going by whats in the bible, so its not my version of God.
I think your version of God is petty, small and childlike.