11 Oct 23
@divegeester
Are you going to get run over if you cross the road ?
It depends on whether there is any traffic coming in close proximity to you when you do so.
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11 Oct 23
2 edits
@medullah saidMy bottom line in all this, is this…
Sorry I missed this post first time around.
That's interresting, I've not heard that idea before.
Certainly the concept of hell was something that the Catholic church (and several others) have used to instill fear in people (threat of burning forever) which isn't what it is (the common grave).
So I would agree with you that it will be done away with (death will be r ...[text shortened]... got the keys but they don't get used until after quarratine arrangement that we live in is resolved?
If there is a God who claims to be all knowing and all powerful and all loving, and whom oversees the burning alive of one person whom he/she/it supernaturally keeps alive for an eternity of flesh-melting agony, and tries to pass it off as the “justice” as explained in its ancient book of often incomprehensible texts… then I want no part of believing such morally broken nonsense.
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11 Oct 23
@rajk999 saidBut Christ loved us while we are still sinners. How odd then that his love has a time scale limited by our fleshly lifespan.
All people are saved. Some get eternal life. Some are cast out. Christ was clear, there is both reward and there is punishment which is death /annihilation by fire. It is not eternal torment.
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11 Oct 23
@medullah saidSorry chap, I don’t know what your on about.
@divegeester
Are you going to get run over if you cross the road ?
It depends on whether there is any traffic coming in close proximity to you when you do so.
11 Oct 23
@divegeester saidI wouldn't either. In fact "morally broken nonsense." hits the nail right on the head.
My bottom line in all this, is this…
If there is a God who claims to be all knowing and all powerful and all loving, and whom oversees the burning alive of one person whom he/she/it supernaturally keeps alive for an eternity of flesh-melting agony, and tries to pass it off as the “justice” as explained in its ancient book of often incomprehensible texts… then I want no part of believing such morally broken nonsense.
But as the bible doesn't say that I sleep easy. Dead is dead.
Note below tha the eventulaity of a dead man is the same as a dead animal, and they don't go to some everlasting inferno.
Ecc 3:19 "For what happens to the sons of men also happens to animals; one thing befalls them: as one dies, so dies the other. Surely, they all have one breath; man has no advantage over animals, for all is vanity. "
Rom 6:23 " For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Ecc 9:5 " For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten."
The eternal torment thing comes from pagan beleifs that the Catholic Church adopted and pushed as fact - it goes from there.
11 Oct 23
@divegeester saidIt's not limited that way, but once somebody is dead it's a bit like getting a red card in a football match; you are oujt of that particular game.
But Christ loved us while we are still sinners. How odd then that his love has a time scale limited by our fleshly lifespan.
The bible talks of a resurrrection, those few that go to heaven do, and the majority stay on earth. But there is provision for those that died who perhaps hadn't hasd the opportunity or for some reson didn't know about Chriat's teachings.
John 5:28 "Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice"
John 6: 39 "The Father sent Me. He did not want Me to lose any of all those He gave Me. He wants Me to raise them to life on the last day. "
Acts 24:15 "15 having a hope in God which these themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust. "
So those that have done wrong can get a second bite of the cherry.
11 Oct 23
1 edit
@divegeester saidThis is a very simple matter and I have quoted this verse many times, but people who are indoctrinated by church doctrines cannot see this point. Gods love is conditional. God's love for man is dependent on man returning that love. How? Not by professing faith or saying 'I love God'. Not by going to church or reading the bible. Here it is:
But Christ loved us while we are still sinners. How odd then that his love has a time scale limited by our fleshly lifespan.
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. (John 14:21 KJV)
A man returns Gods love by keeping the commandments
Then God makes his abode with that man
If the man dies without keeping the commandments then God knows that man does not love him in return.
12 Oct 23
@medullah saidActs 24:15 says nothing about the unjust getting any second bite of anything. Is that your church doctrine. I know you are a former JW.
It's not limited that way, but once somebody is dead it's a bit like getting a red card in a football match; you are oujt of that particular game.
The bible talks of a resurrrection, those few that go to heaven do, and the majority stay on earth. But there is provision for those that died who perhaps hadn't hasd the opportunity or for some reson didn't know about Chriat's ...[text shortened]... oth the just and the unjust. "
So those that have done wrong can get a second bite of the cherry.
12 Oct 23
The post that was quoted here has been removedI dont know anything about you. You joined yesterday. How can I possibly know whether or not I am better than you? In any case, the type of person who joins RHP then immediately proceeds to the forums to engage everyone in just about every topic including starting threads, is one of those delinquents who gets banned often, and comes back under another name. So there you have one thing God does for me. He stops me from behaving like you.
12 Oct 23
@rajk999 saidThis is very clear
Acts 24:15 says nothing about the unjust getting any second bite of anything. Is that your church doctrine. I know you are a former JW.
Acts 24:15 "15 having a hope in God which these themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust. "
So if you have died and are unjust, but gert a resurrection, how is that not a second chance?
12 Oct 23
1 edit
@medullah saidI suspect you are misreading that Acts passage. Here it is;
This is very clear
Acts 24:15 "15 having a hope in God which these themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust. "
So if you have died and are unjust, but gert a resurrection, how is that not a second chance?
I do admit this to you: I worship the God of our ancestors by following that Way which they say is false. But I also believe in everything written in the Law of Moses and the books of the prophets. I have the same hope in God that these themselves have, namely, that all people, both the good and the bad, will rise from death. (Acts 24:14-15 GNB)
Paul is saying that he believes in God and follow the Law of Moses and HE HAS the same hope that the prophets had that God will raise all people from the dead, both good and bad. It say nothing about the unjust getting a second chance at anything. If you want to know what happen to the unjust, Jesus said it clearly:
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:28-29 KJV)
The evil people are resurrected for damnation. There are some evil who die without punishment. Death is not a punishment. Death is just a sleep, where you await reward or punishment. I know your JW background preaches something else.
12 Oct 23
Let’s first deal with the subject matter and I’ll address your gossiping at the end.
Acts 24:15
“and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. - New International Version
And I have hope in God, which they themselves also hold, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. - 21st Century New King James
having hope toward God, which these also themselves [a]look for, that there shall be a resurrection both of the just and unjust. - American Standard Version
"I have the same hope in God which they themselves hold, that there is to be a resurrection of both good men and bad" -JB Philips New Testament Translation
"And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. " - *King James Version
"having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, [that] there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous" - Young’s Literal Translation
And I could go on.
Romans 6:23 makes it clear that the wages of sin is death; those that were truly evil have paid the price of their deeds. There is no point in resurrecting somebody that is evil just to kill them again. That's almost as much twisted lunacy as the teaching of the trinity.
Now we have had a difference of opinion as to the application of the scriptures. Instead of behaving like a gentleman, limiting yourself to the subject matter, you behave like an old washer woman, attempting to introducing things that were discussed in private, hoping that referencing such things will somehow swing the argument for you.
It makes no difference what I am; what I was; or what I will become. The resurrection is for the righteous and the unrighteous.
12 Oct 23
@medullah saidSo lets deal with the subject matter and I will address your gossiping at the end.
Let’s first deal with the subject matter and I’ll address your gossiping at the end.
Acts 24:15
“and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. - New International Version
And I have hope in God, which they themselves also hold, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, bo ...[text shortened]... I am; what I was; or what I will become. The resurrection is for the righteous and the unrighteous.
Jesus said he will raise people to punish them. I quoted the passage and there are many others like it. He was clear on that. So you saying ...There is no point in resurrecting somebody that is evil just to kill them again. Is just an opinion. nothing more. So thats final. Jesus said it clearly. Whether or not it is not in keeping with your belief is irrelevant. I can quote many more like it from Revelation or other descriptions of the judgment. All are raised, some to be rewarded and some to face punishment for their deeds. Death is not punishment. A man like Hitler who killed millions probably died painlessly with a bullet to his head. He will face the true judge in due time. A child molester or rapist or serial killer will face the just rewards for their deeds. Death is just a sleep. God raises the dead to face the judge. You are mistaken.
Now you had said that you used to be a JW [or influenced by their doctrine] publicly some years ago. Maybe you forgot. If you are offended by that then I am happy to apologies. So Sorry about that. Me winning any argument is not the issue. I quote the words of Jesus, I will not quote Paul or Solomon if Jesus says something on the matter. Jesus is the authority.... nobody else. The bible is not all equal. Some teachings are more authoritative than others. I put Jesus first. Clearly you dont.