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28 May 18
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FMF,
Do you know beyond a shadow of doubt that this statement is not and cannot be true?
"All things came into being though Him [Christ] and apart from Him not one thing came into being which has come into being."
Let's call it a dogmatic statement.
Do you KNOW that it is false?
Could it be true?
Could it be BELIEVED for its truth?
Originally posted by @sonshipI am telling you point blank. No dodging. No weaving. I have no more or less reason to believe your dogma is true than I do my neighbour's.
You're not arguing with your Muslim neighbour right now.
You're dodging, weaving and bobbing away from questions from me.
Could my Muslim neighbour's dogma about God true? Is it theoretically possible? Yes, sure. Why not? Do I have any credible reason to believe it is? No, I don't. Same goes for the stuff you have rote-learned.
Originally posted by @sonshipI find myself with no reason to believe that it's true. and while I do not doubt that you are sincere in your belief, my open-mindedness about the existence of a creator being forges ahead unmoved and unconvinced by the folklore that you believe provides "the" answer.
FMF,
Do you know beyond a shadow of doubt that this statement is not and cannot be true?
[b]"All things came into being though Him [Christ] and apart from Him not one thing came into being which has come into being."
Let's call it a dogmatic statement.
Do you KNOW that it is false?
Could it be true?
Could it be BELIEVED for its truth?[/b]
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28 May 18
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Originally posted by @fmfYour objection is really a big Genetic Fallacy.
I am telling you point blank. No dodging. No weaving. I have no more or less reason to believe your dogma is true than I do yours.
Could my Muslim neighbour's dogma about God true? Is it theoretically possible? Yes, sure. Why not? Do I have any credible reason to believe it is? No, I don't. Same goes for the stuff you have rote-learned.
"If it is dogma, if it is learned by rote, if it is ideological, it must be false."
Which of the three seems more logical to you?
1. The universe always existed from eternity.
2. The universe did not always exist from eternity but created ITSELF.
3. A power with will and intelligence created the universe from OUTSIDE of it.
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28 May 18
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Originally posted by @fmfSo you have open mindedness about the possibility of a Creator. You're unmoved about that?
I find myself with no reason to believe that it's true. and while I do not doubt that you are sincere in your belief, my open-mindedness about the existence of a creator being forges ahead unmoved and unconvinced by what the folklore that you believe provides "the" answer.
If such a Creator would come to inform us of His or Her identity, what characteristics do you think He or She would display ?
28 May 18
Originally posted by @sonshipI don't know the age of the origin of the universe. I suppose I'd opt for no.1 if I was filling in a form and it said please fill in all boxes - but it's just conjecture. I take it you have opted for no.3 and have then extrapolated from that that you will get everlasting life and I will be tortured for eternity because my imagination/conjecture didn't have me opting for no.3.
Your objection is really a big Genetic Fallacy.
Which of the three seems more logical to you?
1. The universe always existed from eternity.
2. The universe did not always exist from eternity but created ITSELF.
3. A power with will and intelligence created the universe from OUTSIDE of it.
28 May 18
Originally posted by @sonshipIt wouldn't be the kind of stuff you regurgitate or the kind of stuff the Muslim preachers regurgitate on my TV here.
So you have open mindedness about the possibility of a Creator. You're unmoved about that? If such a Creator would come to inform us of His or Her identity, what characteristics do you think He or She would display ?
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28 May 18
2 edits
Originally posted by @fmf
I don't know the age of the origin of the universe. I suppose I'd opt for no.1 if I was filling in a form and it said please fill in all boxes - but it's just conjecture. I take it you have opted for no.3 and have then extrapolated from that that you will get everlasting life and I will be tortured for eternity because my imagination/conjecture didn't have me opting for no.3.
I don't know the age of the origin of the universe.
I didn't ask you about the age of the universe.
I suppose I'd opt for no.1 if I was filling in a form and it said please fill in all boxes
You "suppose" ? Sounds like you want to leave an escape hatch somewhere. Why do you only "suppose" the universe is eternal and was never begun ?
All of science we know says that if this were the case it should have certainly run down, run out, grown cold, dispersed, decayed by now.
Is there something esthetically more pleasing to you about a beginning-less universe as some scientist has confessed ?
- but it's just conjecture. I take it you have opted for no.3 and have then extrapolated from that that you will get everlasting life and I will be tortured for eternity because my imagination/conjecture didn't have me opting for no.3.
Sounds like your really eager to jump to conclusions.
Is that how you plan to win the argument by pushing conclusions beyond the immediate questions you are being asked ?
So you "kinda," prefer to believe the universe ALWAYS was and was never created.
So I take it that it is also "kinda" possible that the statement of all things came into being through the Word, could be true even though it sounds dogmatic or learned by rote.
Could the belief that the universe always was be just as learned by rote and just as dogmatic a belief? We don't know for sure by observation. So could it be?
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28 May 18
Originally posted by @fmfYou definitely believe # 1?
"Escape hatch"?
"Escape" from what?
What superstitious viewpoint - of yours - are you going to project onto me now?
1. The universe always existed from eternity.
And if not too definite, what would be the next possibility?
2. The universe did not always exist from eternity but created ITSELF.
OR
3. A power with will and intelligence created the universe from OUTSIDE of it.
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28 May 18
1 edit
Originally posted by @fmfBy direct empirical scientific observation no one knows.
I don't know the origin or age of the universe. Neither do you.
Is it impossible that Someone who was involved and DOES know could REVEAL it to us to be believed or disbelieved?
Is it possible ?
Is this IMPOSSIBLE?
28 May 18
Originally posted by @sonshipI've given you 10 years of my time and you've come up empty-handed to my way of thinking. And I gave the kind of stuff you believe in nearly 30 years before that ~ until I finally realized that I didn't believe it anymore. How many more years do you think I should give it? Should your threats of supernatural punishment by way of eternal torture be having some effect on me, changing my mind, making me believe the stuff you say?
So I take it that it is also "kinda" possible that the statement of all things came into being through the Word, could be true even though it sounds dogmatic or learned by rote.
28 May 18
Originally posted by @sonshipI am open-minded, sure. But you gave me three options, and I opted for no.1. Am I going to be punished by your god figure?
By direct empirical scientific observation no one knows.
Is it impossible that Someone who was involved and DOES know could REVEAL it to us to be believed or disbelieved?
Is it possible ?