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07 Jan 18
Fear is the appropriate response to Christ's teaching that in this respect He will inform us of WHO it is that we should fear.
Please do not exploit this into a concept that the ONLY and SOLE response to God in man is to FEAR. To say that is to overstate without limit something that has parameters.
You annhilationists like to push the matter beyond all limits to reinforce your negative view of eternal judgment.
In the same section Christ teaches whom we should definitely fear - God, AND why we also should FEAR NOT - the same God.
"But I will show you whom you should fear ... I tell you, fear this One." (v.5)
"Do not be afraid; you are of more value than many sparrows." (v.7)
You're just going to have to accept that there are at least two sides to the attributes of God.
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Originally posted by @sonshipHere is the question you need to answer. It stems from your own post a couple of pages back where you were explaining how much Jesus loved a woman, he loved her so much so that he died for her. But according to you, Jesus will now burn her alive in eternal hell for the eternal sin of rejecting him.
Fear is the appropriate response to Christ's teaching that in this respect He will inform us of WHO it is that we should fear.
Please do not exploit this into a concept that the ONLY and SOLE response to God in man is to FEAR. To say that is to overstate without limit something that has parameters.
You annhilationists like to push the matter beyond ...[text shortened]... ust going to have to accept that there are at least two sides to the attributes of [b] God. [/b]
The question to you is this, for the 5th time:
Would you burn alive for eternity someone you loved that much, because they rejected you?
I dare you to answer, and we both know why you won’t. Because this question highlights the idiocy of your horrid teaching. I know you are trying to bury this question under copious tangential posts and I’m not going to let you do it.
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Originally posted by @divegeester
You are just waffling to avoid on topic questions sonship.
Here is the question you need to answer. It stems from your own post a couple of pages back where you were explaining how much Jesus loved a woman, he loved her so much so that he died for her. But according to you, Jesus will now burn her alive in eternal hell for the eternal sin of rejectin ...[text shortened]... trying to bury this question under copious tangential posts and I’m not going to let you do it.
Would you burn alive for eternity someone you loved that much, because they rejected you?
No,
But neither would I drink the cup that Christ had to drink.
But neither would I go up to the cross to be under the wrath of God for the sins of the world.
But neither would I pronounce that sinners are forgiven on my own authroity.
But neither would I rise from the dead on my own authority. (John 10:18) .
Neither could I be so absolute as to want nothing for myself but want everything for God my Father.
Neither could I say "Which of you convicts me of sin?"
Neither could I be forsaken buy twelve faithful disciples.
Neither could I create the universe.
Neither could I have the omniscience to judge all mankind.
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I have written this before, Now I re-write it.
If before the creation of the universe God had made me and asked me -
"Jack, I am going to create some beings. And they potentially will have the ability to completely go against My will. If they do what do you think I should do with them?
Should I just make them non-existent or should I torment them forever? You decide. I'll do as you recommend."
I might say "God, I do not have the wisdom to know what is the best thing to do to such beings. I do not trust myself that what is the right thing to do in response is what should be done.
Dear God, I leave that awesome decision to You. You know, God, what is the best thing in response to that situation. What I think may not be what should happen. The ripples and reverberations throughout eternity of what I think should happen, I do not know. God, YOU have the infinite wisdom to know what YOU should do."
07 Jan 18
Originally posted by @deepthoughtSure, but then there are people who do not bother to make this distinction. I think this is what we are cautioned against.
I think that there is a difference between making a judgement about what is good and evil and looking for it in other people.
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Originally posted by @sonshipIf you excercised your brain instead of swallowing the dogma that has been fed to you for decades you would admit that the doctrine of eternal suffering is nonsensical and completely alien to the Jesus we see in John 3:16 and through the entire gospel in fact.
I have written this before, Now I re-write it.
If before the creation of the universe God had made me and asked me -
"Jack, I am going to create some beings. And they potentially will have the ability to completely go against My will. If they do what do you think I should do with them?
Should I just make them non-existent or should I torment them ...[text shortened]... ink should happen, I do not know. God, YOU have the infinite wisdom to know what YOU should do."
Your abdication of thought in this matter and your unwillingness to look at the scriptures you quote with a open mind on symbolism and just being out of kilter, brings the entire gospel into disrepute.
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Originally posted by @divegeesterSo the 'perishing' that Jesus came to save us from in John 3:16 is simply death and a cessation of existence? Most atheists and in fact everyone would be quite happy just to die and to simply cease their existence and face no consequences for all the wrongs they have committed in their lifetime. In fact they would probably prefer it if no one 'saved them' from that. If on the other hand Jesus came to save us from an eternity of reckoning for all our wrongs, that is a message that everyone in their right mind would pay attention to. So you are in fact the one bringing the gospel into disrepute and making Jesus's atoning sacrifice sound quite cheap.
If you excercised your brain instead of swallowing the dogma that has been fed to you for decades you would admit that the doctrine of eternal suffering is nonsensical and completely alien to the Jesus we see in John 3:16 and through the entire gospel in fact.
Your abdication of thought in this matter and your unwillingness to look at the scriptures ...[text shortened]... a open mind on symbolism and just being out of kilter, brings the entire gospel into disrepute.
Originally posted by @dj2beckerClearly you relish the idea of eternal suffering for those you consider nonChristians. If you look at the Greek wording for the John 3 passage you would see that 'perish' has the following derivative:
So the 'perishing' that Jesus came to save us from in John 3:16 is simply death and a cessation of existence? Most atheists and in fact everyone would be quite happy just to die and to simply cease their existence and face no consequences for all the wrongs they have committed in their lifetime. In fact they would probably prefer it if no one 'saved them' ...[text shortened]... e one bringing the gospel into disrepute and making Jesus's atoning sacrifice sound quite cheap.
apollumi ap-ol'-loo-mee; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish. Total KJV occurrences: 92
Sad to say there is no eternal torment and suffering for people.
This fate is reserved for the Devil and his angels.
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Originally posted by @sonshipNo. He is the most obnoxious. No contest. (No collusion).
First let me say that two of you, Ghost and Dive have decided to request dj2becker just stop responding to you.
Realize that this mostly gives the impression that he may be exposing the weaknesses in some of your arguments.
There are plenty of posters who are more obnoxious then dj2becker. I mean - mean spirited, insulting, poisoning the well of dis ...[text shortened]... aken this approach could even suggest collusion. It looks that way a bit - a coordinated scheme.
He provides no intellectual challenge. Just mindless repetition, and has done so over 2 accounts. - I come to these forums for enjoyable and engaging discussion. Interaction with him provides none of that. He stands alone in that regard.
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Originally posted by @rajk999I don’t relish it at all. There are just verses that hard to explain without eternal suffering:
Clearly you relish the idea of eternal suffering for those you consider nonChristians. If you look at the Greek wording for the John 3 passage you would see that 'perish' has the following derivative:
[i]apollumi ap-ol'-loo-mee; [b]to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish. Tot ...[text shortened]... o eternal torment and suffering for people.
This fate is reserved for the Devil and his angels.[/b]
1. Undying Worm and Unquenchable Fire (OT)
Isaiah 66:22-24
For as the new heavens and the new earth
that I make
shall remain before me, says the LORD,
so shall your offspring and your name remain.
From new moon to new moon,
and from Sabbath to Sabbath,
all flesh shall come to worship before me,
declares the LORD.
And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.
2. Everlasting Life/Everlasting Contempt
Daniel 12:1-2
At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3. Eternal Fire/The Fire of Hell
Matthew 18:6-9
Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe to the world for temptations to sin! For it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the one by whom the temptation comes! And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.
4. Eternal Punishment/Eternal Life
Matthew 25:31-46
When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, “Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.” . . . Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. . . . And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
5. Undying Worm and Unquenchable Fire (NT)
Mark 9:42-48
Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea. And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, “where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.”
6. Everlasting Destruction
2 Thessalonians 1:5-10
This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering—since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.
7. The Punishment of Eternal Fire
Jude 7
Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
8. Blackest Darkness Reserved Forever
Jude 13
[These people are] wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.
9. The Smoke of Their Torment Rises for Ever and Ever
Revelation 14:9-11
If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.
10. The Lake of Fire
Revelation 20:10, 14-15
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. . . . Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justin-taylor/ten-foundational-verses-for-eternal-punishment-in-hell/
Originally posted by @dj2beckerCant seem to find anything in those references about:
I don’t relish it at all. There are just verses that hard to explain without eternal suffering:
1. Undying Worm and Unquenchable Fire (OT)
Isaiah 66:22-24
For as the new heavens and the new earth
that I make
shall remain before me, says the LORD,
so shall your offspring and your name remain.
From new moon to new moon,
and from Sabbath to Sab ...[text shortened]... egospelcoalition.org/blogs/justin-taylor/ten-foundational-verses-for-eternal-punishment-in-hell/
- eternal / everlasting suffering
- eternal / everlasting torment.
for nonChristians, or sinful people etc.
Do you mind pointing it out?
I see:other stuff about.
- eternal fire
- some worm that does not die
- everlasting contempt
- the devil, the beast and the false prophet tormented for ever and ever.
Nothing about eternal torment for people in general.
Is English your second language or something?