Originally posted by @divegeesterOther people make up this stuff and dump it in his head..
What on Earth are you on about “eternal sin”?
You just make this stuff up don’t you.
Some people's brains are like that, empty dustbins eager to be filled with garbage.
Worst he is anxious to find others like him who will believe the nonsense
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Originally posted by @divegeesterIf that is the case how come I don't know what reply you're talking about?
I notice you avoided responding to my last reply to you.
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Originally posted by @divegeesterNo it doesn’t, it is YOUR interpretation.
No it doesn’t, it is YOUR interpretation.
Jesus loved the woman you were talking, you say he loved her so much that he died for her...that’s what you said.
Then in the next breath you support this incredulous notion that this same Jesus who LOVED her so much will personally torture her with flames for eternity.
Tell me sonship if you LOVED s ...[text shortened]... n you honestly not see how utterly utterly nonsensical, amoral, and incoherent this teaching is?
Jesus loved the woman you were talking, you say he loved her so much that he died for her...that’s what you said.
Then in the next breath you support this incredulous notion that this same Jesus who LOVED her so much will personally torture her with flames for eternity.
Tell me sonship if you LOVED someone that much would you then torture them for eternity if they rejected you?
Can you honestly not see how utterly utterly nonsensical, amoral, and incoherent this teaching is?
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Originally posted by @divegeester
No it doesn’t, it is YOUR interpretation.
It goes without saying that we are interpreting bible passages.
That's a given. Isn't it?
Jesus loved the woman you were talking, you say he loved her so much that he died for her...that’s what you said.
I believe that because Jesus is God incarnate.
I could not believe that if Jesus Christ is not God incarnate - the joining of the infinite and the finite.
I believe that way because I believe the statements of the Bible to that effect. And because when I came to Jesus, God became real to me.
By the way. I did not pass judgement on that women in the hypothetical scenario. I don't KNOW what has gone on deep in her heart.
Only God knows in the last analysis.
I was not eager to pronounce her as never having accepted Christ.
Then in the next breath you support this incredulous notion that this same Jesus who LOVED her so much will personally torture her with flames for eternity.
I believe that Jesus is God in man and Paul said the Son of God loved him and gave Himself up for him. Paul took Christ's death PERSONALLY.
Based upon this I take it personally that God in Christ gave up Himself for each of us.
" ... the faith of the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself up for me." (See Gal. 2:20)
Only God, transcendent to time, incarnate though as a man, could do this. He personally loved me and gave Himself up for me.
Tell me sonship if you LOVED someone that much would you then torture them for eternity if they rejected you?
I don't think God forces people to be saved from Satan's rebellion. And the eternal fire was prepared for the devil and his angels.
Apparently, if men refuse to be redeemed from that revolt they will co-share that rebel's destiny. They will go with their leader.
They way C.S. Lewis put it, if a man will not say "Thy will be done" God will have no choice but to finally reply "Your will be done."
Can you honestly not see how utterly utterly nonsensical, amoral, and incoherent this teaching is?
You've asked me this before, I think.
My reply would be the same.
It is from the mouth of Jesus Christ that we learn these things for the most part. The same mouth which spoke the greatest words of love, pardon, patience, forgiveness, also uttered the most fearsome words of God's wrath.
You are in denial that Jesus taught the world these things about eternal life and eternal punishment. That is why I have no choice but to take them seriously.
You're approach is that men should not take seriously what was uttered by Christ in this regard.
Now, you objected to the phrase "an eternal sin". That is from the New Testament. Here is a website on the phrase which I found helpful.
https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/894-what-is-the-eternal-sin
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Originally posted by @sonshipThere is no such thing as eternal sin; that you got the idea from another person is no surprise to me.
It goes without saying that we are interpreting bible passages.
That's a given. Isn't it?
I know what you believe and why you believe it. Instead of telling me what I already know why not respond to my questions in my post which you have dodged. Again.
Thanks.
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Originally posted by @divegeester
There is no such thing as eternal sin; that you got the idea from another person is no surprise to me.
I know what you believe and why you believe it. Instead of telling me what I already know why not respond to my questions in my post which you have dodged. Again.
Thanks.
There is no such thing as eternal sin; that you got the idea from another person is no surprise to me.
The New Testament teaches that there is such a thing.
Mark 3:28-30: "Truly I tell you, all sins and blasphemes will be forgiven for the sons of men. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin. He said this because they [the Pharisees] were saying, 'He has an evil spirit'."
All may not agree as to what that "eternal sin" is.
But apparently there was this saying of Christ.
I know what you believe and why you believe it. Instead of telling me what I already know why not respond to my questions in my post which you have dodged. Again.
Whether I dodge or do not dodge, it doesn't change what the Bible says. You seem to think emotions have an effect somehow on the presence or non-presence of certain concepts revealed in the Bible.
The implications of Revelation 22:11 also seem to indicate that a person can become FIXED into a certain moral state from a point and on forever.
"Let him who does unrighteousness do unrighteousness still; and let him who is filthy be filthy still; and let him who is righteous do righteousness still; and let him who is holy be holy still." (Revelation 22:11)
Originally posted by @sonship[/b]Using your favourite translation to support you again?There is no such thing as eternal sin; that you got the idea from another person is no surprise to me.
The New Testament teaches that there is such a thing.
[b] Mark 3:28-30: "Truly I tell you, all sins and blasphemes will be forgiven for the sons of men. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, b ...[text shortened]... do righteousness still; and let him who is holy be holy still." (Revelation 22:11)
Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit. (Mark 3:28-30 KJV)
Nothing about eternal sin in the KJV.
A course in English Language and English Comprehension would help you to understand more.
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Originally posted by @sonship[/b]You are do disengenuous sonship, I find your intellectual dishonesty quite distasteful. You know very well that I’m not referring to blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, I’m talking about the billions of souls in hell being burnt alive becuase they are not Christians and you trying to to use “eternal sin” to justify “eternal suffering”.There is no such thing as eternal sin; that you got the idea from another person is no surprise to me.
The New Testament teaches that there is such a thing.
[b] Mark 3:28-30: "Truly I tell you, all sins and blasphemes will be forgiven for the sons of men. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, b ...[text shortened]... do righteousness still; and let him who is holy be holy still." (Revelation 22:11)
Try to be honest Sir.
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Originally posted by @rajk999I would not be overly dogmatic about it or insist on the existence of "an eternal sin".
The gospel message remains the same whether you believe in an eternal sin or not. To be eternally unforgiven is to be in the grips of an eternal sin.
But here are some other English translations.
English Standard Version
but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”—
American Standard Version
but whosoever shall blaspheme against the Holy Spirit hath never forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin:
Douay-Rheims Bible
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost, shall never have forgiveness, but shall be guilty of an everlasting sin.
Weymouth New Testament
but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, he remains for ever unabsolved: he is guilty of a sin of the Ages."
NET Bible
But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin"
Darby Bible Translation
but whosoever shall speak injuriously against the Holy Spirit, to eternity has no forgiveness; but lies under the guilt of an everlasting sin;
English Revised Version
but whosoever shall blaspheme against the Holy Spirit hath never forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin:
World English Bible
but whoever may blaspheme against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin"
Originally posted by @sonshipAnyway as Dive pointed out. .. its an irrelevant matter.
I would not be overly dogmatic about it or insist on the existence of [b]"an eternal sin".
The gospel message remains the same whether you believe in an eternal sin or not. To be eternally unforgiven is to be in the grips of an eternal sin.
But here are some other English translations.
English Standard Version [/b ...[text shortened]... nst the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of [b] an eternal sin"[/b]
Why not focus on the topic instead of using diversionary tactics.
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Originally posted by @divegeesterYou have Jesus Christ to blame.
I believe His words.
I no longer expect you to be honest about this.
I no longer anticipate that you will honestly admit that these words are in the New Testament. (Matt. 25:41,46).
I expect that you are obsessed with resentment against the words of Jesus Christ, misdirecting your blame and accusation against those who have no choice but to believe Him.
I think the fate of the lost is described in its worst circumstances.
We do not have throughout all pages of the NT the precise description we see in Revelation 14:10-11.
Though I do not know this, it may be that the worst and most horrible end of the spectrum is explicitly told us. But if not, it is what it is.
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Martin Hughes - The good news of Atheism (For Christians)
"...something awesome about not being a Christian. I am not a sinner who needs grace to justify his being in the world. I’m not part of a human race that crucified the greatest man who ever lived. I no longer think that my sins drove the nails through his hands.
I used to sit, silently, in deep meditation, every communion, in deep gratitude for what I thought Jesus did for me. Although I didn’t admit it at the time, it was humiliating to have that gratitude. The trauma of realizing how Jesus suffered crippled my psychology, I think. I don’t think it does this to everyone — but if you really feel, deep inside, what Jesus did for you, profoundly and sincerely…I think your sense of gratitude would also be perpetual and overwhelming. And with every smile and laugh in relief, you’re reminded that the fact you need grace is your fault.
It’s like being accused of murder, and then getting pardoned for it. You’re grateful for the pardon, but every week you go to a building and thank the one who pardoned you. You also hear constantly about how terrible what you did was, and how incredibly nice it was to be pardoned. This makes you cry in gratitude. It changes your life and the way you see yourself on a fundamental level.
And then, one day, you notice things don’t look right. Maybe there’s some evidence that you were sleeping at home at the time of the murder. Maybe there’s evidence that the person you murdered didn’t really exist in the first place. Maybe there’s evidence that the accusation of murder was a mixture of conspiracy and coincidence that ballooned into a framing of you for this terrible, terrible murder.
And you eventually, after 28 years of thinking, every day, that you needed this grace desperately, find out that the murder of this great, great human being was not your fault. In fact, it didn’t even happen nearly the way it was described, if it happened at all. If it did happen, it happened 2000 years ago and had nothing, at all, whatsoever, to do with you.
Maybe you would fall to your knees and cry and smile in relief. Maybe all those years of psychological torment would fade away. Maybe you would collapse in the sheer shock that this…all of this…was not your fault.
That’s what it was like for me.
But the difficult thing is that I still see people in Christianity who are lied to. Who are told they are guilty of the worst murder in history because of their supposed sins. Who are controlled by the lie, and grateful to the very people who perpetuate it because they voice “forgiveness” for it.
So there’s anger in seeing it. There’s anger in people still trying to tell others they are guilty, and that if they are ungrateful for the “pardon” their sins will land them an eternity of torment.
That does make me upset. After all, these aren’t people I just heard about yesterday. I grew up with them. They’re my close family and friends. I’ve experienced what they are experiencing. And I want to help.
But then again…it’s not my fault that Christianity isn’t true. It was created before I was born and I was trapped in it for 28 years. It happened and it’s terrible.
But…it’s not my fault that it isn’t true.
It’s not my fault that people have been framed for a murder they didn’t commit.
So I work against it, and I try to convince them, but the realization that it’s not my fault keeps me going with some semblance of inner peace."
Read more at http://www.patheos.com/blogs/barrierbreaker/this-is-not-your-fault-the-good-news-of-atheism-for-christians/#245FRwmqWjAkuZ5l.99
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Originally posted by @sonshipPlease kindly answer the questions/address the points in my post about the woman who Jesus loved and died for then burnt for eternity in hell, instead of obfuscating with this eternal sin tangent.
I would not be overly dogmatic about it or insist on the existence of [b]"an eternal sin".
The gospel message remains the same whether you believe in an eternal sin or not. To be eternally unforgiven is to be in the grips of an eternal sin.
But here are some other English translations.
English Standard Version [/b ...[text shortened]... nst the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of [b] an eternal sin"[/b]
Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-dukeNow that makes perfect sense. Mr Hughes is rebelling against the World Christians who have lied to him. The teachings of Jesus Christ never once included sordid details about his death and even what it represented, and certainly nothing about Christians needing to feel guilty, needy and other such nonsense. I would wager that even the disciples did not have a clue why Jesus died or had to die. Yet they were the chosen 12. The doctrine of Christ, basically good works and righteousness stands now and will stand forever. The doctrine of World Christians which has led to untold pain and a lifetime of guilt will one day die because it runs contrary to Christ, who taught .. "you know what is right, just do it" ... end of story.
Martin Hughes - The good news of Atheism (For Christians)
"...something awesome about not being a Christian. I am not a sinner who needs grace to justify his being in the world. I’m not part of a human race that crucified the greatest man who ever lived. I no longer think that my sins drove the nails through his hands.
I used to sit, silent ...[text shortened]... rrierbreaker/this-is-not-your-fault-the-good-news-of-atheism-for-christians/#245FRwmqWjAkuZ5l.99