06 Feb 18
Originally posted by @thinkofoneIt seems like you are just using vengeance in a way that makes justice sound like a pejorative.
Vengeance isn't about love. It's about hatred.
Oddly enough, in debates, one of the harder things to do is to describe justice without coming to the conclusion that there has to be retribution for wrong-doing. Many people couch justice as having to be purely rehabilitative, and anything less is vengeance, but this is just clever wordplay meant to make the justice process sound dirty.
No, I refuse: justice involves punishing the wicked.
Why is punishing the wicked wrong?
... I also like how I asked for elaboration from you and I got a total of three sentences in two posts. I have already more than tripled your entire content with just this post. Please, give me some content.
06 Feb 18
Originally posted by @thinkofoneFaith in Christ is the way in which inherits eternal life. Barring rare circumstances, Faith is very much a long-term engagement for us, and the Faithful show their faith through abstaining from evil and doing good.
Did you not write "he rewards the just and punishes the wicked"? Do you think most Christians believe that the dividing line between receiving eternal life and not, is based on whether an individual is "just" or "wicked" - or something else?
Do you dispute that?
Do you think someone who has been a serial killer after accepting Christ can still just waltz into heaven even though every important lesson was entirely ignored?
06 Feb 18
Originally posted by @jacob-vervilleYou have described two extremes.
Faith in Christ is the way in which inherits eternal life. Barring rare circumstances, Faith is very much a long-term engagement for us, and the Faithful show their faith through abstaining from evil and doing good.
Do you dispute that?
Do you think someone who has been a serial killer after accepting Christ can still just waltz into heaven even though every important lesson was entirely ignored?
1. Faith in Christ Plus Good works and avoidance of evil
2.
3.
4.
5. Serial Killer Christians
#1 are the elect of God, rulers with Christ
Some of 2, 3 and 4 will enter the Kingdom of God as well.
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06 Feb 18
<Do you think someone who has been a serial killer after accepting Christ can still just waltz into heaven even though every important lesson was entirely ignored?>
Obviously such a person did not accept Christ into his heart or God’s Holy Spirit would have been changing him for the better and not the worse.
Accepting Christ is more than just reciting a rote prayer. You need to have a sincere heart. You need to accept Christ in sincerity and truth.
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06 Feb 18
<and the Faithful show their faith through abstaining from evil and doing good.>
Kind of disagree with this (unless I’m misunderstanding you) because it seems to imply avoiding evil and doing good is the result of a person’s own effort.
Get into God’s Word, read it regularly and pray regularly with a sincere and humble heart and God’s Holy Spirit will lead you!
Originally posted by @romans1009While Christians like you continue to focus on reason for someone doing good and avoiding evil, there are many in all religions who just simply do it - they avoid evil and do good. These are the people that Christ will welcome into the Kingdom of God.
<and the Faithful show their faith through abstaining from evil and doing good.>
Kind of disagree with this (unless I’m misunderstanding you) because it seems to imply avoiding evil and doing good is the result of a person’s own effort.
Get into God’s Word, read it regularly and pray regularly with a sincere and humble heart and God’s Holy Spirit will lead you!
06 Feb 18
Originally posted by @jacob-vervilleIf you're looking for something to read, try reading: The Sermon on the Mount, a book on critical thinking and a dictionary.
It seems like you are just using vengeance in a way that makes justice sound like a pejorative.
Oddly enough, in debates, one of the harder things to do is to describe justice without coming to the conclusion that there has to be retribution for wrong-doing. Many people couch justice as having to be purely rehabilitative, and anything less is ven ...[text shortened]... already more than tripled your entire content with just this post. Please, give me some content.
I don't recall anyone having gotten so fixated on how many sentences someone else writes. Seems pretty immature.
06 Feb 18
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Originally posted by @jacob-vervilleIf you really want me to explain things to you, you're really going to have to step up your game and exhibit the ability to operate on a higher level than you have in any of our discussions thus far. I'm guessing you don't put much thought into your responses and likely don't put much thought into every much else either.
Faith in Christ is the way in which inherits eternal life. Barring rare circumstances, Faith is very much a long-term engagement for us, and the Faithful show their faith through abstaining from evil and doing good.
Do you dispute that?
Do you think someone who has been a serial killer after accepting Christ can still just waltz into heaven even though every important lesson was entirely ignored?
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Originally posted by @rajk999If you (or anyone else) thinks you’re getting into heaven on your “good works,” you’re in for a very unpleasant surprise. Your “good works” are filthy rags to a supremely holy God, and God sets the rules for who is allowed to enter His home - not you or any other human being. And God has told us what is required for salvation in John 3:16 and Romans 10:9, and “good works” ain’t it.
While Christians like you continue to focus on reason for someone doing good and avoiding evil, there are many in all religions who just simply do it - they avoid evil and do good. These are the people that Christ will welcome into the Kingdom of God.
But let’s pretend you’re right about good works getting you into heaven. How many good works does one need to do? What is the weighting scale for good works; do they vary in significance? If so how is the significance of a good work measured - by time, number of people helped or something else? Do “bad works” cancel out good works?
Do you see how foolish it is to think good works is how one gets into heaven? Would a just God use good works as the criteria for getting into heaven without saying how many needed to be done?
06 Feb 18
Originally posted by @rajk999I do not think that we can judge them specifically. For that matter, we can't actually judge anyone at all, that is a management decision.
You have described two extremes.
1. Faith in Christ Plus Good works and avoidance of evil
2.
3.
4.
5. Serial Killer Christians
#1 are the elect of God, rulers with Christ
Some of 2, 3 and 4 will enter the Kingdom of God as well.
However, how is it wrong to require people to give up sinful activities?
If a man is habitually committing adultery and claims to "repent" but does not have actual contrition, and continues in this way, how can we be sure that he will be forgiven this by God? It seems rather like an illegitimate effort.
Luke 13:5 says that unless you repent, you shall perish.
2 Corinthians 7:9-10 indicates that sorrow leads us to repentance and shows the nature of contrition.
Repentance in the ancient Greek is "Metanoia." Metanoia connotes a transformative change of heart. It means repenting, with contrition, and becomign something else. It does not mean simply regretting something slightly and doing nothing to change the poor behavior.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metanoia_%28theology%29
Do you know what I mean?
Like, you have to try to be a better person and work on your flaws. That's a part of Christendom. If you truly believe, you should truly desire to reflect Christ, and to progress as a Christian.
What do you think about that?
06 Feb 18
Originally posted by @thinkofoneI am sorry if you found it immature but it just felt like there was no content at all -- just a single criticism without much reason.
If you're looking for something to read, try reading: The Sermon on the Mount, a book on critical thinking and a dictionary.
I don't recall anyone having gotten so fixated on how many sentences someone else writes. Seems pretty immature.
06 Feb 18
Originally posted by @romans1009First of all the Bible never said anything about anyone getting into heaven. Neither did I. This heaven going nonsense is just another one of your false church doctrines that you swallow.
If you (or anyone else) thinks you’re getting into heaven on your “good works,” you’re in for a very unpleasant surprise. Your “good works” are filthy rags to a supremely holy God, and God sets the rules for who is allowed to enter His home - not you or any other human being. And God has told us what is required for salvation in John 3:16 and Romans 10:9 ...[text shortened]... se good works as the criteria for getting into heaven without saying how many needed to be done?
Christ preached good works, and those who practice it will enter the Kingdom of God.
You will find nowhere that Christ spoke of any of these issues which you think is a big deal: He said nothing.
- doing good works on their own strength - NOTHING
- peoples good works are filthy rags - NOTHING
- how many good works - NOTHING
Plus all the others.. all nonsensical garbage questions and issues designed to avoid doing good works and living righteously.
06 Feb 18
Originally posted by @thinkofoneIt sounds like you are literally saying that I am not smart enough to discuss things with and that everything would be over my head. I would dispute how true that is because I feel like I contribute something to the forum and have some knowledge of these things. AT least, I hope I do, I try to study them well, and am I am really willing to discuss the points.
If you really want me to explain things to you, you're really going to have to step up your game and exhibit the ability to operate on a higher level than you have in any of our discussions thus far. I'm guessing you don't put much thought into your responses and likely don't put much thought into every much else either.
This sort of attitude is not setting a good tone for the forum and you might wish to think about treating your fellow Christian with a better attitude.
06 Feb 18
Originally posted by @jacob-vervilleI am agreeing with you. I just think that there are far more than the two extreme scenarios that you described, and several of these are in line for entry into Gods Kingdom.
I do not think that we can judge them specifically. For that matter, we can't actually judge anyone at all, that is a management decision.
However, how is it wrong to require people to give up sinful activities?
If a man is habitually committing adultery and claims to "repent" but does not have actual contrition, and continues in this way, ho ...[text shortened]... ruly desire to reflect Christ, and to progress as a Christian.
What do you think about that?
06 Feb 18
Originally posted by @rajk999This is just one verse. There are others like it.
First of all the Bible never said anything about anyone getting into heaven. Neither did I. This heaven going nonsense is just another one of your false church doctrines that you swallow.
Christ preached good works, and those who practice it will enter the Kingdom of God.
You will find nowhere that Christ spoke of any of these issues which you thin ...[text shortened]... sensical garbage questions and issues designed to avoid doing good works and living righteously.
He seems to clearly be talking about going to a literal heaven.
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:17-20)
Christ in his own words on the topic.
His Father's house is also another expression for heaven:
"2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”" (John 14:2-4)
Here is also related because it talks about the ressurrection of the dead, and how the dead, after coming to live, will now live in a different way, and we will not marry in heaven. A ltieral reference to behavior in a Heaven that is after ressurrection and not of this world from the mouths of Christ.
"29 Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31 But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.” 33 When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at his teaching." (Matthew 22:29-33)
How do you make sense of the idea that there is no heaven in the face of these texts?